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How many billions of CAD / NZD / AUD will be lost due to Canada / ANZ not perusing the ESL students

How many billions of CAD / NZD / AUD will be lost due to Canada / ANZ not perusing the ESL students

Old Aug 9th 2003, 8:46 am
  #1  
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Default How many billions of CAD / NZD / AUD will be lost due to Canada / ANZ not perusing the ESL students

How many billions of CAD / NZD / AUD will be lost due to Canada / ANZ not
perusing the ESL students that would have gone to the USA, but can't due to
the recent changes in the US -- where you have to present yourself at the US
Consulate
or Embassy?

US Consulates and Embassies are not equipped, and will not be equipped for
some years for tens of thousands of people seeking ESL education.

There are several categories that have been added to the mandatory US visa
queues, and ESL students will probably not get preference (as opposed to biz
folk).
 
Old Aug 9th 2003, 8:58 pm
  #2  
Neil Raines
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Default Re: How many billions of CAD / NZD / AUD will be lost due to Canada / ANZ not perusing the ESL stude

Think of the social problem NZ will avoid by not getting more ESL students.


    > How many billions of CAD / NZD / AUD will be lost due to Canada / ANZ not
    > perusing the ESL students that would have gone to the USA, but can't due
to
    > the recent changes in the US -- where you have to present yourself at the
US
    > Consulate
    > or Embassy?
    > US Consulates and Embassies are not equipped, and will not be equipped for
    > some years for tens of thousands of people seeking ESL education.
    > There are several categories that have been added to the mandatory US visa
    > queues, and ESL students will probably not get preference (as opposed to
biz
    > folk).
 
Old Aug 9th 2003, 10:30 pm
  #3  
Goose
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Default Re: How many billions of CAD / NZD / AUD will be lost due to Canada / ANZ not perusing the ESL stude

Neil,

What problem?

Goose


"Neil Raines" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > Think of the social problem NZ will avoid by not getting more ESL
students.
    > > How many billions of CAD / NZD / AUD will be lost due to Canada / ANZ
not
    > > perusing the ESL students that would have gone to the USA, but can't due
    > to
    > > the recent changes in the US -- where you have to present yourself at
the
    > US
    > > Consulate
    > > or Embassy?
    > >
    > > US Consulates and Embassies are not equipped, and will not be equipped
for
    > > some years for tens of thousands of people seeking ESL education.
    > >
    > > There are several categories that have been added to the mandatory US
visa
    > > queues, and ESL students will probably not get preference (as opposed to
    > biz
    > > folk).
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
 
Old Aug 9th 2003, 10:40 pm
  #4  
Jason Rumney
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Default Re: How many billions of CAD / NZD / AUD will be lost due to Canada

"Goose" <[email protected]> writes:

    > Neil,
    >
    > What problem?

By "social problem", I think he means that the minority of New
Zealanders who are insular and xenophobic in their outlook will have
the PROBLEM of learning to SOCIALise with non-native English speaking
foreigners.
 
Old Aug 10th 2003, 5:27 am
  #5  
Brian Damage
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Default Re: How many billions of CAD / NZD / AUD will be lost due to Canada / ANZ not perusing the ESL stude

What social problem, naziboy? The problem of disrupting the purity
of the Aryan society in Naziland?



"Neil Raines" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > Think of the social problem NZ will avoid by not getting more ESL students.
    >
    >
    > > How many billions of CAD / NZD / AUD will be lost due to Canada / ANZ not
    > > perusing the ESL students that would have gone to the USA, but can't due
    > to
    > > the recent changes in the US -- where you have to present yourself at the
    > US
    > > Consulate
    > > or Embassy?
    > >
    > > US Consulates and Embassies are not equipped, and will not be equipped for
    > > some years for tens of thousands of people seeking ESL education.
    > >
    > > There are several categories that have been added to the mandatory US visa
    > > queues, and ESL students will probably not get preference (as opposed to
    > biz
    > > folk).
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
 
Old Aug 10th 2003, 12:00 pm
  #6  
Goose
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Default Re: How many billions of CAD / NZD / AUD will be lost due to Canada / ANZ not perusing the ESL stude

Yeah, I agree. You know, funny thing...say, there is an ESL school in NZ and
it has..say 4 teachers and they've been working and supporting THEIR
families simply because they work there. And one day, due to "social
problems" the school has to close its doors 'cause there ain't that many
students willing to pay $10-20K/a year so that they can go to NZ and feel
'uncomfortable" in some way. Oh, yes, we still have the teachers working
there...well, they have to go. Sorry. But they still have bills and loans to
pay and no jobs. Too bad....too late....to ignorant...

Rob

<jasonr (Jason Rumney) @ f2s.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > "Goose" <[email protected]> writes:
    > > Neil,
    > >
    > > What problem?
    > By "social problem", I think he means that the minority of New
    > Zealanders who are insular and xenophobic in their outlook will have
    > the PROBLEM of learning to SOCIALise with non-native English speaking
    > foreigners.
 
Old Aug 10th 2003, 7:11 pm
  #7  
Neil Raines
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Default Re: How many billions of CAD / NZD / AUD will be lost due to Canada / ANZ not perusing the ESL stude

Dangerous driving, kidnappings, gang fights.

I do not believe Auckland can offer a quality ESL programme to any more
students. Part of a quality ESL programme is home stay so the students can
use the language they have learnt. Auckland has reached the limit of
suitable home stay opportunities. There may be provincial cities that have a
smaller percentage of students and so still have a capacity to expand.


    > Neil,
    > What problem?
    > Goose
    > "Neil Raines" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > Think of the social problem NZ will avoid by not getting more ESL
    > students.
    > >
    > >
    > > > How many billions of CAD / NZD / AUD will be lost due to Canada / ANZ
    > not
    > > > perusing the ESL students that would have gone to the USA, but can't
due
    > > to
    > > > the recent changes in the US -- where you have to present yourself at
    > the
    > > US
    > > > Consulate
    > > > or Embassy?
    > > >
    > > > US Consulates and Embassies are not equipped, and will not be equipped
    > for
    > > > some years for tens of thousands of people seeking ESL education.
    > > >
    > > > There are several categories that have been added to the mandatory US
    > visa
    > > > queues, and ESL students will probably not get preference (as opposed
to
    > > biz
    > > > folk).
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > >
    > >
 
Old Aug 10th 2003, 10:17 pm
  #8  
Back Again
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Default Re: How many billions of CAD / NZD / AUD will be lost due to Canada / ANZ not perusing the ESL stude

"Neil Raines" <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

    > Subject: Re: How many billions of CAD / NZD / AUD will be lost due to
    > Canada / ANZ not perusing the ESL students that would have gone to the
    > USA, but can't due to the recent changes in the US -- where you have
    > to present yourself at the US Consulate From: "Neil Raines"
    > <[email protected]> Newsgroups:
    > misc.immigration.australia+nz,misc.immigration.can ada,rec.travel.austra
    > lia+nz,soc.culture.australian,soc.culture.canada,s oc.culture.new-zealan
    > d
    >
    > Dangerous driving, kidnappings, gang fights.
    >
    > I do not believe Auckland can offer a quality ESL programme to any
    > more students. Part of a quality ESL programme is home stay so the
    > students can use the language they have learnt. Auckland has reached
    > the limit of suitable home stay opportunities. There may be provincial
    > cities that have a smaller percentage of students and so still have a
    > capacity to expand.



Definitely.

What is the point for example, of a Chinese ESL student going to Australia
or Auckland, flatting with Mandarin speaking Chinese from China, and
speaking Chinese everyday after University?

Much better to get into a good quality University were there are smaller
numbers of Chinese speakers (eg., the situation with Otago University).
That way they get to immerse themselves in the English language, not just
dip their feet in. Of course, it is harder for them to get into Otago
University because they have higher entrance standards for ESL students
than some of the other Universities.
 
Old Aug 10th 2003, 10:55 pm
  #9  
Neil Raines
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Default Re: How many billions of CAD / NZD / AUD will be lost due to Canada / ANZ not perusing the ESL stude

    > > Subject: Re: How many billions of CAD / NZD / AUD will be lost due to
    > > Canada / ANZ not perusing the ESL students that would have gone to the
    > > USA, but can't due to the recent changes in the US -- where you have
    > > to present yourself at the US Consulate From: "Neil Raines"
    > >
    > > I do not believe Auckland can offer a quality ESL programme to any
    > > more students. Part of a quality ESL programme is home stay so the
    > > students can use the language they have learnt. Auckland has reached
    > > the limit of suitable home stay opportunities. There may be provincial
    > > cities that have a smaller percentage of students and so still have a
    > > capacity to expand.
    > Definitely.
    > What is the point for example, of a Chinese ESL student going to Australia
    > or Auckland, flatting with Mandarin speaking Chinese from China, and
    > speaking Chinese everyday after University?
    > Much better to get into a good quality University were there are smaller
    > numbers of Chinese speakers (eg., the situation with Otago University).
    > That way they get to immerse themselves in the English language, not just
    > dip their feet in. Of course, it is harder for them to get into Otago
    > University because they have higher entrance standards for ESL students
    > than some of the other Universities.

Sounds like a promo for a certain university. I'm sure any NZ polytech could
do as well, and the students would get into less trouble in places like
Gisborne or Timaru.
 
Old Aug 11th 2003, 1:06 pm
  #10  
Back Again
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Default Re: How many billions of CAD / NZD / AUD will be lost due to Canada / ANZ not perusing the ESL stude

"Neil Raines" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

    >> Definitely.
    >> What is the point for example, of a Chinese ESL student going to
    >> Australia or Auckland, flatting with Mandarin speaking Chinese from
    >> China, and speaking Chinese everyday after University?
    >> Much better to get into a good quality University were there are
    >> smaller numbers of Chinese speakers (eg., the situation with Otago
    >> University). That way they get to immerse themselves in the English
    >> language, not just dip their feet in. Of course, it is harder for
    >> them to get into Otago University because they have higher entrance
    >> standards for ESL students than some of the other Universities.
    >
    > Sounds like a promo for a certain university.


Perhaps, but I think the three top Universities in New Zealand are
Auckland, Otago, and Massey. I happen to think Otago and Auckland are
pretty much top equal, and but that in some areas Massey does have the
edge.

The disadvantage for Auckland for ESL students, particularly Chinese, is
that many of them fall into the trap of flatting with students from the
same background, and end up speaking more Mandarin than English. Dunedin
itself does have a larger proportion of native English speakers, and I
believe that is also true of Otago Uni's students.



    > I'm sure any NZ polytech
    > could do as well, and the students would get into less trouble in
    > places like Gisborne or Timaru.


Poly's are okay for somethings, but a lot of Poly "degrees" are not
recognised anywhere else, and in many employers mind, Poly's are still
for people who were not acdemic enough to make it at a Uni. I don't know
how fair that is, not having studied at a Poly myself to compare.
 
Old Aug 11th 2003, 8:19 pm
  #11  
Neil Raines
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Default Re: How many billions of CAD / NZD / AUD will be lost due to Canada / ANZ not perusing the ESL stude

I agree with your ranking of Universities, although Victoria is well
regarded for law, but ESL does not depend on a top University, but more on
good basic teaching, and lots of practice.

    > >>
    > >> What is the point for example, of a Chinese ESL student going to
    > >> Australia or Auckland, flatting with Mandarin speaking Chinese from
    > >> China, and speaking Chinese everyday after University?
    > >>
    > >> Much better to get into a good quality University were there are
    > >> smaller numbers of Chinese speakers (eg., the situation with Otago
    > >> University). That way they get to immerse themselves in the English
    > >> language, not just dip their feet in. Of course, it is harder for
    > >> them to get into Otago University because they have higher entrance
    > >> standards for ESL students than some of the other Universities.
    > >
    > > Sounds like a promo for a certain university.
    > Perhaps, but I think the three top Universities in New Zealand are
    > Auckland, Otago, and Massey. I happen to think Otago and Auckland are
    > pretty much top equal, and but that in some areas Massey does have the
    > edge.
    > The disadvantage for Auckland for ESL students, particularly Chinese, is
    > that many of them fall into the trap of flatting with students from the
    > same background, and end up speaking more Mandarin than English. Dunedin
    > itself does have a larger proportion of native English speakers, and I
    > believe that is also true of Otago Uni's students.
    > > I'm sure any NZ polytech
    > > could do as well, and the students would get into less trouble in
    > > places like Gisborne or Timaru.
    > Poly's are okay for somethings, but a lot of Poly "degrees" are not
    > recognised anywhere else, and in many employers mind, Poly's are still
    > for people who were not acdemic enough to make it at a Uni. I don't know
    > how fair that is, not having studied at a Poly myself to compare.
 
Old Aug 12th 2003, 9:39 am
  #12  
Brian Dooley
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Default Re: How many billions of CAD / NZD / AUD will be lost due to Canada / ANZ not perusing the ESL stude

On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 08:58:00 -0700, "Goose"
<[email protected]> wrote:

    >Yeah, I agree. You know, funny thing...say, there is an ESL school in NZ and
    >it has..say 4 teachers and they've been working and supporting THEIR
    >families simply because they work there. And one day, due to "social
    >problems" the school has to close its doors 'cause there ain't that many
    >students willing to pay $10-20K/a year so that they can go to NZ and feel
    >'uncomfortable" in some way. Oh, yes, we still have the teachers working
    >there...well, they have to go. Sorry. But they still have bills and loans to
    >pay and no jobs. Too bad....too late....to ignorant...
    >Rob
    ><jasonr (Jason Rumney) @ f2s.com> wrote in message
    >news:[email protected]...
    >> "Goose" <[email protected]> writes:
    >> > Neil,
    >> >
    >> > What problem?
    >> By "social problem", I think he means that the minority of New
    >> Zealanders who are insular and xenophobic in their outlook will have
    >> the PROBLEM of learning to SOCIALise with non-native English speaking
    >> foreigners.
And by "perusing" I think he means "pursuing".

--
Brian Dooley

Wellington New Zealand
 
Old Aug 15th 2003, 11:12 am
  #13  
Derek
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Default Re: How many billions of CAD / NZD / AUD will be lost due to Canada / ANZ not perusing the ESL stude

back again <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>. ..
    > "Neil Raines" <[email protected]> wrote in
    > news:[email protected]:
    >
    > Perhaps, but I think the three top Universities in New Zealand are
    > Auckland, Otago, and Massey. I happen to think Otago and Auckland are
    > pretty much top equal, and but that in some areas Massey does have the
    > edge.

If Massey is one of the top three I would hate to see what the bottom
three are like. I was unlikely enough to work in Massey's College of
Business from 1999-2002. It was a complete joke. The reason they are
the biggest business school in the country is that they have standards
so low as to be nonexistent. Their only goal is to maximize efts
(enrolment). In research, their economics department is continually
ranked last in New Zealand (see the last couple of rankings in New
Zealand Economics Papers) and that was considered one of the more
productive departments in the College of Business. I have worked in
universities in three countries and I don't think the worst university
in the other two counties would have been as bad as Massey.

    > ... Poly's are still
    > for people who were not acdemic enough to make it at a Uni.

People like that can also go to Massey.
 
Old Aug 15th 2003, 12:09 pm
  #14  
Brian Harmer
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Default Re: How many billions of CAD / NZD / AUD will be lost due to Canada / ANZ not perusing the ESL stude

On 15 Aug 2003 16:12:58 -0700, [email protected] (Derek) wrote:

    >If Massey is one of the top three I would hate to see what the bottom
    >three are like. I was unlikely enough to work in Massey's College of
    >Business from 1999-2002.

It seems that you have your knife out for Massey, Derek. What did they
do to you in the Department of Applied and International Economics
that was so terrible?
 
Old Aug 15th 2003, 1:44 pm
  #15  
Derek
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Default Re: How many billions of CAD / NZD / AUD will be lost due to Canada / ANZ not perusing the ESL stude

"Brian Harmer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > On 15 Aug 2003 16:12:58 -0700, [email protected] (Derek) wrote:
    > >If Massey is one of the top three I would hate to see what the bottom
    > >three are like. I was unlucky enough to work in Massey's College of
    > >Business from 1999-2002.
    > It seems that you have your knife out for Massey, Derek.

Actually, my previous post was just stating facts. Given that you know the
long winded name of the department you must be somewhat familiar with Massey
(I still get comments when people see the department's name on my c.v. and
past papers). Thus, I should not have to say much more about the place for
your sake. I admit that there were some people there who deserved to have
jobs in legitimate universities but were hampered in part by either "down
under" degrees (which are not worth much on the academic job market in
economics), family ties, fear that they might end up someplace worse, etc.

I do hear that since I left they have managed to get rid of a very
incompetent HOD. However, that will not change the institution (I don't
think it will even turn around the department). I think that it will
continue to stay in the business of selling phony university degrees and
make believing that they are a university.

There were some positive aspects of the experience. I think that living in
a foreign country is an experience that everyone should undertake sometime
in their life. Moreover, I meet some good friends even if some of the best
were nonacademics who don't have e-mail and are therefore hard to keep in
contact with. Also, I am now much less impatient with students whining
about their work loads as I realize that Canadian students are not nearly as
bad as I used to think (everything is relative). I now even think that on
average the majors are pretty good. Nonetheless, professionally Massey was
largely a waste of time and in hindsight I should have gone with another
offer instead.


    >What did they
    > do to you in the Department of Applied and International Economics
    > that was so terrible?

When they paid me off, I signed an agreement not to say but it has nothing
to do with my previous post anyway.
 

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