Gripe for today

Old Nov 12th 2001, 12:32 pm
  #1  
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This will probably stir some debate but...

On reading through this newsgroup, I see a lot of people asking about when they have to take up residence, or how long they must stay in Canada before leaving to go back to their "home" country. It would seem to me that these people should plan a little better, not lodge their applications before they are ready to actually move to AND live permanently in Canada and stop clogging up the system and slowing down the application processing time for those applicants who are genuine in wanting to make Canada their home sooner rather than later. It is extrememly frustrating to many of us who have a desire to move to Canada as soon as possible to see people using Canadian PR as a form of convenience.

All I say is - plan a little better!
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Old Nov 13th 2001, 12:00 am
  #2  
James Metcalfe
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Right on

Jim Metcalfe


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Old Nov 13th 2001, 1:19 am
  #3  
Peace®
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wondering <[email protected]>
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I cant agree more with u. i'm moving with my parents to Canada and plan to make it
our permanent home. It will be more difficult for my parents than me but still its a
life changing experience.

There are innumerable candidates for Canada immigration which really don't need it
but only securing it as a second option which i feel is not doing any good. There are
people who *need* to immigrate, those who *want* to immigrate and those who *have* to
immigrate. There should be careful planning as to which category they fall under and
then plan accordingly. It would help us all.

I hope that me and my family have a great Canadian life.

peace®
 
Old Nov 13th 2001, 3:06 am
  #4  
Luterin
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Precisely - its frustrating...

Let's see what happens once the 3/5 years rule kicks in, instead of the current
183/365 days...

-Lute.
 
Old Nov 13th 2001, 3:20 am
  #5  
Serge
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I would say let's see what happens when Americans after concluding full revision of
their visa waiver program will close the loophole allowing citizens of Commonwealth
countries (especially Pakistan and India) who are also Canadian PR to enter US
without visa. Those guys (Pakistanis and Indians) are the ones who abuse existing
systems and obtain Canadian PR for 2 reasons only - to be able to enter US without a
visa and to sponsor their parents for Canadian PR (and when granted to take them
across the border to US anyway) as they cannot sponsor them to US. We'll see how many
applications will be submitted after such decision is made...

Serge

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[usenetquote2]>> wanting to make Canada their home sooner rather than later. It is extrememly[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> frustrating to many of us who have a desire to move to Canada as soon as possible[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> to see people using Canadian PR as a form of convenience.[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>>[/usenetquote2]
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Old Nov 13th 2001, 4:39 am
  #6  
Hello All
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In my understanding, visa waiver program and Canadian PRs of Commonwealth Countries
fall under two different categories, while seeking entry in to the US. Currently
there are 29 participating countries in the VWP: Andorra, Argentina, Austria,
Australia, Belgium, Brunei, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Iceland, Ireland,
Italy, Japan, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Monaco, The Netherlands, New Zealand,
Norway, Portugal, San Marino, Singapore, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, the
United Kingdom and Uruguay (I got this list from State Dept. web site).

If what you say is true, then one should not find people of Indian / Pakistani origin
in Canada. Type-casting people does NOT promote meaningful discussions.

ASA H1b visa holders moving to Canada is concerned, CIC has already gotten tight and
you could have read stories about people being turned away.

Even gripe has to me meaningful.

Serge wrote:

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[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >> wanting to make Canada their home sooner rather than later. It is extrememly[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >> frustrating to many of us who have a desire to move to Canada as soon as[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >> possible to see people using Canadian PR as a form of convenience.[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >>[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >Precisely - its frustrating...[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >Let's see what happens once the 3/5 years rule kicks in, instead of the current[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >183/365 days...[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >-Lute.[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
 
Old Nov 13th 2001, 6:21 am
  #7  
Stuart
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[
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Very true.

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There are indeed more and more stories of people coming to Canada, supposedly
landing, returning to the US to complete an H1B and then trying to come back to
Canada often enough to pretend the 183/365 rule is being met and then refused entry
as a PR because they are deemed to have not actually landed.

There are several problems here ...

1) US immigration takes SO long, immigrants to the US opt for Canada as a
"backup plan".

2) The US H1B program is only 6 years long, but it can take all of that for people
from China and India / Pakistan to actually get their immigrant visa even though
their petition was approved. So, after 6 years, they have to go somewhere, and
sure as hell don't want to go back home.

3) There is a belief that it's easier to get into the USA if you are already
in Canada.

[usenetquote2]>> I would say let's see what happens when Americans after concluding full revision[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> of their visa waiver program will close the loophole allowing citizens of[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> Commonwealth countries (especially Pakistan and India) who are also Canadian PR to[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> enter US without visa. Those guys (Pakistanis and Indians) are the ones who abuse[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> existing systems and obtain Canadian PR for 2 reasons only - to be able to enter[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> US without a visa and to sponsor their parents for Canadian PR (and when granted[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> to take them across the border to US anyway) as they cannot sponsor them to US.[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> We'll see how many applications will be submitted after such decision is made...[/usenetquote2]

This is nothing to do with Visa Waiver ... nor Commonwealth citz Canadian PRs ... but
is everything to do with the high demand and slow processing of immigrant visa
numbers in the US, and an historically lax enforcement of the "landing" requirements
in Canada. We have the laws to stop this if CIC just choses to enforce them and is
given the authority to turn people back more liberally.

Stuart
 
Old Nov 13th 2001, 6:51 am
  #8  
Meson
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What you say is true, but, to add another "classification", there are some who want
to come over but want to stay out as long as possible, whatever the reasons, and for
some, it is not possible to predict the resolution of certain issues, especially
family issues, so that they can appropriately plan to apply. I fall in the second
category. I had planned properly, but certain family issues came up and I had to
delay my landing and I need to go back for a while again to settle them and then come
back to establish residence.

What I have generally seen is that it is so easy for people to come in, refugees,
people without money, asking for grants, child support, tution etc etc. and while I
am trying to settle here (only after taking care of my family issues ) its so
difficult. The job situation is bad, cant get any credit card, cant buy any property
to establish residence, cant go back of 183 day rule. cant, cant, cant..I personally
dont like to take any monetary benefits from the govt. too, or to become a burden.

I guess I have digressed somewhat from the real issue my apologies. But finally,
what I see is that either I abandon my parents and TRY to settle here or go back,
sort my issues and then come back to settle, which does make sense, even from the
Cabadian perspective.

So, wouldnt it be better if it is stressed that people only come in when they can
establish residency properly, even though they went back after obtaining the PR. And
most of the facilities and rights are given only after they settle in, rather give
them the rights as soon as they land and expect them to forcefully establish
residence, even if they have to go through a hard time. People eventually do plan to
come over to settle. Let them solve their issues or whatever and give them facilities
when they settle down.

Well you said it might generate some debate !!! just my 2 cents worth of opinion.

Regards

[email protected] (peace®)
[usenetquote2]> > This will probably stir some debate but...[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > On reading through this newsgroup, I see a lot of people asking about when they[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > have to take up residence, or how long they must stay in Canada before leaving to[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > go back to their "home" country. It would seem to me that these people should[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > plan a little better, not lodge their applications before they are ready to[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > actually move to AND live permanently in Canada and stop clogging up the system[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > and slowing down the application processing time for those applicants who are[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > genuine in wanting to make Canada their home sooner rather than later. It is[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > extrememly frustrating to many of us who have a desire to move to Canada as soon[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > as possible to see people using Canadian PR as a form of convenience.[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > All I say is - plan a little better![/usenetquote2]
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Old Nov 13th 2001, 7:56 am
  #9  
vj
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You gave a wonderful insight, i 100% agree with you.

Peace
Vj

vj is offline  
Old Nov 13th 2001, 8:50 am
  #10  
Stuart
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One of the problems with the concept of a delayed landing by permitting you to go
back to your homeland and so on is that the conditions on which you were granted your
visa may change between the time of your departure and the time of your "re-landing".
You may for example, come down with TB, or you may go and rob a bank. (A stretch,
yes, but not impossible).

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Personally, I have no problems with a genuine immigrant coming to Canada and for
various reasonable reasons having to resort to some of the country's support
mechanisms. But do have a lot of problems with people coming to Canada, but
intending to go to the US and therefore put no effort into supporting themselves in
Canada, and relying on the support systems. I don't care where they've come from -
just what they do.

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At one time the PR papers very specifically stated that you should not file the
papers until you were ready, willing and able to move to Canada.

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No-one is forcefully expecting you to establish residence. You stated in filing your
application that you wanted to establish a permanent residence in Canada and were
ready, willing and able to do so. You are making a committment. If you aren't ready
willing and able, then don't file.

I'll agree that maybe an expedited process to the point where an application is
abandoned might be a good idea, so that it might make it a little more flexible if
you must abandon an application because of certain reasonalbe reasons.

Stuart
 
Old Nov 13th 2001, 8:58 am
  #11  
Paul
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I agree with what Serge had to say there ... Indians/Pakistainis and in general
Asians are the people who do the maximum abuse of the immigration laws and they find
various loopholes in laws to exploit it ... Before accusing them, lets just stop for
a moment and analyze why these people do what they are doing ... What is driving them
to such an extent that they don't want to return to their homeland at any cost ... As
wrong it may seem these people do it for very good and important reason ... And an
important part of the blame is because of our ancestors ... Lets go a little bit back
in time ... Every explorer from Europe and England wanted to land in India ... Why do
think they wanted to risk their lives and come in search of this Promise land ???...
Until the beginning of this century the Indus-Valley Civilization [ Present day
India, Pakistan and part of Mainland China ] was the most properous, wealthy and
advanced civilization of mankind ... They had abundant riches and wealth which we
can't even imagine or contemplate today ... The British, the Spainards, the
Portuguese all wanted to be the first to come to this place of awesome wealth ... why
so far ... Columbus after landing on mainland America[present day USA], thought he
had landed in India and called the people of land Indians [ Present day Native
Americans ] ... without this accidental discovery it would have been years or even
centuries before this Great Continent we live today would have been discovered ...
Now all these Explorers totally plundered these countries wealth and slaved these
people to do work for them ... That is the main reason why we have this great
demarcation today of countries as Developed and Developing or Third world ... And if
you study closely the history of most Developing or Third world countries you may
find this .. they would have suffered a brutal colonial rule ... So these countries
have been depreived the general process of development due to these factors and that
is why they are still backward and under developed ... So the people from these
countries want to move to a developed nation were there is much more money and better
life style ... This is the same human tendancy our ancestors had when they went in
search of other properous land .. So once there and after experiencing life and
luxury, which we have taken for granted they now want to stay ... I am a great
champion of Canadian Immigration because they are possibly the only developed nation
in the world which have such a easy immigration law for people of third world ... And
I point out here that the people that do immigrate from countries like India, China,
Pakistan or whatever countries are no push overs ... They are the best brains of
their nations .. Do you know how much these third world countries are suffering
because of this tremendous Brain-Drain ... This is because here are all these highly
skilled and talented people but their govt couldn't provide them with jobs to match
their skills ... So coming to the point here ... I am *not* supporting for all these
people who clog our immigration centers around world to get a PR in Canada and then
turn right back and get to the US .. What I am saying is we should never deprive a
genuine person who want to come to Canada and settle down here of the flexibilty
he/she is entitled to by curtailing his/her rights because certain other people of
the same race/nation have done something to abuse the same system ... All the
immigrants know how difficult it is to leave one country and settle in a completely
alien place ... So lets give them time and opportunity to adjust and settle down ...
They sure will be better Role-Model Canadian Citizen ... And last to all the Indians
/ Pakistainis / Chinese / Immigrants don't abuse the laws because you not only
represent yourself but also your country and any wrong things or mistakes you do,
people are going to sterotype the entire bunch from your nation/race for that
wrongdoing ... Lets all celebrate unity in diversity and Peace to all ...

- Paul

Serge wrote:

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[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >> wanting to make Canada their home sooner rather than later. It is extrememly[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >> frustrating to many of us who have a desire to move to Canada as soon as[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >> possible to see people using Canadian PR as a form of convenience.[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >>[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >Precisely - its frustrating...[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >Let's see what happens once the 3/5 years rule kicks in, instead of the current[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >183/365 days...[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >-Lute.[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
 
Old Nov 13th 2001, 9:07 am
  #12  
Stuart
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Of course, it appears that Asians are the people who do the maximum abuse of
immigration laws, for the simple reason that numerically they represent probably the
greatest number of immigrants! I think you'll find that on a percentage basis there
is actually very little difference in the abuse of the laws.

Hell, Canadians violate US immigration law to avoid going home, even though it is so
close, just because it is such a hassle to move.

Stuart
 
Old Nov 13th 2001, 11:47 pm
  #13  
Stephen Gallagher
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I'll 90% agree with you that most immigrants should plan the timing of their
application sooner than later. But, as someone who did immigrate to Canada, I will
have to give a small amount of understanding that often, people have to take
advantage of the moment, especially if their immigration is not family related. A
person who knows that he qualifies to immigrate now, could be a little afraid that if
he waits another year before applying, he may be told, "Sorry, the rules have
changed, you did qualify last year, but not anymore." Permanent residence is a
valuable privilage, and most people don't want to gamble with the opportunity to
obtain it.

Like I said, you have most of my support. Most people should be able to plan their
affairs around their immigration application. And I have absolutely no time for
people whose real intention is to immigrate to the US, but who want PR status in
Canada as a backup or safety net.

But there are a few legitimate immigrants who will have to return abroad for several
months to complete some affairs. In my case, I had to return to the US for 9 months
to finish my master's degree. I had originally intended it to be finished by the time
my visa came through, but two required classes that I needed were not offered because
of circumstances, and I had to wait until they were offered. I applied for, and
received a returning resident permit, and most importantly, I permanently moved to
Canada within one month of completing my degree.

It's the abusers of the system that cause a bad view to be cast on everyone,
including the legitimate and honest users.

Stephen
 
Old Nov 14th 2001, 12:26 am
  #14  
Stephen Gallagher
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That is correct. The provision allowing visa fee entry for Canadian citizens and
Landed Immigrants who are citizens of a country in the Commonwealth, or Ireland, is
not related to the Visa Waiver Program.

Stephen Gallagher
 
Old Nov 14th 2001, 11:26 am
  #15  
Kev In Atlanta
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I will answer this. You have a good point that I will not argue with. If you want to
go right now to Canada I think you should go to the front of the line. Some of us
would alike to apply to Canada because we have the intention of living there sometime
in the future. My wife is a Canadian citizen. We both plan to move to Canada SOMEDAY
but not right now because we have jobs,home and kids in the USA. But my wife does
miss Canada so we have agreed that we will be living there sooner or later. The
reason I would like to apply is because one never knows the future. Requirements may
change. I may develop a health problem. Things can change rapidly as was shown on
9-11-01. I know that I qualify to enter and live in Canada NOW but I might not in the
future. That is why I would like the security of having some resident status in that
country NOW while I am able to get it. But I also understand your point as well and,
as I said, those who are ready, willing and able to move should be at the front of
the line. I am in no such rush and I can wait quite along time.

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