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Experts please - HRCD 'opinion' v 'validation'.

Experts please - HRCD 'opinion' v 'validation'.

Old Oct 17th 2002, 1:48 pm
  #1  
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 36
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Question Experts please - HRCD 'opinion' v 'validation'.

Hello there,

Okay, I must admit to being totally confused! I have read so much information regarding HRDC 'opinions' and 'validations', and so much of it was conflicting, that I just don't know what is right or wrong anymore, so perhaps someone out there is sufficiently well informed to be able to set the picture straight for me...

Here is the scenario:

A person wishes to apply for PR, and as part of that application they intend to submit an offer of employment from a Canadian employer. The employment is not to commence until PR has been granted and the person lands.

1. Does the employer have to have the offer of employment checked in some way by the HRDC?

2. If the offer of employment does have to be approved by the HRDC, is this a 'validation' or 'opinion' or are they now one in the same?

3.What exactly will give the person the 15 points for the PR application? (10 points for the job offer and 5 for adaptability.) (I did read somewhere that if you are awarded the 10 points that will prevent you from getting the additional 5 points but that just didn't make any sense to me.)

Is there anyone out there who can clear all this up once and for all?

Thanks.
Shash
shash is offline  
Old Oct 17th 2002, 3:18 pm
  #2  
Andrew Miller
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Experts please - HRCD 'opinion' v 'validation'.

Looks like you are confusing a lot of issues here.

1. This is what Regulations have to say about "Arranged employment"

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
1. (1) In this section, "arranged employment" means an offer of indeterminate
employment in Canada.

Arranged employment (10 points)

(2) Ten points shall be awarded to a skilled worker for arranged employment in
Canada if they are able to perform and are likely to accept and carry out the
employment and

(a) the skilled worker is in Canada and holds a work permit and

(i) there has been a determination by an officer under section 203 that the
performance of the employment by the skilled worker would be likely to result
in a neutral or positive economic effect in Canada,

(ii) the skilled worker is currently working in that employment,

(iii) the work permit is valid for at least 12 months after the date of the
application for a permanent resident visa, and

(iv) the employer has made an offer to employ the skilled worker on an
indeterminate basis once the permanent resident visa is issued to the skilled
worker;

(b) the skilled worker is in Canada and holds a work permit referred to in
paragraph 204(a) or 205(a) and the circumstances in subparagraphs (a)(ii) to
(c) apply; or

(d) the skilled worker does not intend to work in Canada before being issued a
permanent resident visa and does not hold a work permit and

(i) the employer has made an offer to employ the skilled worker on an
indeterminate basis once the permanent resident visa is issued to the skilled
worker, and

(ii) an officer has approved that offer of employment based on an opinion
provided to the officer by the Department of Human Resources Development at
the
request of the employer or an officer that

(A) the offer of employment is genuine,

(B) the employment is not part-time or seasonal employment,
and

(C) the wages and working conditions of the employment would be sufficient
to attract and retain Canadian citizens.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, in your scenario the 82(2)(c) will apply and as you can see the HRDC
opinion is required. Employer should apply for such.

2. Opinion and validation are similar - the major difference is that when
applying for the opinion for the R82(2)(c) purpose employer doesn't need to
document that no Canadian candidate was found after extensive national
advertising of the position.

3. If officer approves job offer then 10 points in the Arranged Employment
factor are granted and there is also an opportunity to get 5 more points in the
Adaptability factor. Adaptability Factor has a maximum of 10 points, so if
those 10 are already awarded for other sub-factors then 5 points for Arranged
Employment cannot obviously be added, but if there is only 5 or less points so
far awarded in the adaptability then person who is awarded 10 points for
arranged employment will also get 5 extra points for the same in the
adaptability factor.

--

../..

Andrew Miller
Immigration Consultant
Vancouver, British Columbia
email: [email protected]
(delete REMOVE from the above address before sending email)

For confidential phone consultation go here:

http://members.yahoo.-
liveadvice.com/andrewmiller_canada

________________________________



"shash" wrote in message
news:447300.1034905697@britishexpats-
.com
...
    > Hello there,
    > Okay, I must admit to being totally confused! I have read so much
    > information regarding HRDC 'opinions' and 'validations', and so much of
    > it was conflicting, that I just don't know what is right or wrong
    > anymore, so perhaps someone out there is sufficiently well informed to
    > be able to set the picture straight for me...
    > Here is the scenario:
    > A person wishes to apply for PR, and as part of that application they
    > intend to submit an offer of employment from a Canadian employer. The
    > employment is not to commence until PR has been granted and the
    > person lands.
    > 1. Does the employer have to have the offer of employment checked in
    > some way by the HRDC?
    >2. If the offer of employment does have to be approved by the HRDC, is
    > this a 'validation' or 'opinion' or are they now one in the same?
    > 3.What exactly will give the person the 15 points for the PR
    > application? (10 points for the job offer and 5 for adaptability.) (I
    > did read somewhere that if you are awarded the 10 points that will
    > prevent you from getting the additional 5 points but that just didn't
    > make any sense to me.)
    > Is there anyone out there who can clear all this up once and for all?
    > Thanks.
    > Shash
    >
    > --
 
Old Oct 17th 2002, 4:29 pm
  #3  
Forum Regular
Thread Starter
 
shash's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 36
shash is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: Experts please - HRCD 'opinion' v 'validation'.

Dear Andrew,

Thank you so much for the advice that you so promptly provided. At last some clarification on the matter! Thank you, thank you, thank you.

If I may ask you another couple of questions?

1. Could you please refer me to the place in the CIC website, (or wherever appropriate) where I can actually have a look at the full provisions of the Act you quoted, including the sections that you made mention of.

2. Do you know which form we should submit and what additional documentation, if any, should be submitted with the form and finally;

3.If the offer of employment is made by an employer in Vancouver, BC, should the appropriate documents be send to the main HRDC office in Vancouver or elsewhere?

Many thanks once again for all you help.
Shash

Originally posted by Andrew Miller:
Looks like you are confusing a lot of issues here.

1. This is what Regulations have to say about "Arranged employment"

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
1. (1) In this section, "arranged employment" means an offer of indeterminate
employment in Canada.

Arranged employment (10 points)

(2) Ten points shall be awarded to a skilled worker for arranged employment in
Canada if they are able to perform and are likely to accept and carry out the
employment and

(a) the skilled worker is in Canada and holds a work permit and

(i) there has been a determination by an officer under section 203 that the
performance of the employment by the skilled worker would be likely to result
in a neutral or positive economic effect in Canada,

(ii) the skilled worker is currently working in that employment,

(iii) the work permit is valid for at least 12 months after the date of the
application for a permanent resident visa, and

(iv) the employer has made an offer to employ the skilled worker on an
indeterminate basis once the permanent resident visa is issued to the skilled
worker;

(b) the skilled worker is in Canada and holds a work permit referred to in
paragraph 204(a) or 205(a) and the circumstances in subparagraphs (a)(ii) to
(c) apply; or

(d) the skilled worker does not intend to work in Canada before being issued a
permanent resident visa and does not hold a work permit and

(i) the employer has made an offer to employ the skilled worker on an
indeterminate basis once the permanent resident visa is issued to the skilled
worker, and

(ii) an officer has approved that offer of employment based on an opinion
provided to the officer by the Department of Human Resources Development at
the
request of the employer or an officer that

(A) the offer of employment is genuine,

(B) the employment is not part-time or seasonal employment,
and

(C) the wages and working conditions of the employment would be sufficient
to attract and retain Canadian citizens.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, in your scenario the 82(2)(c) will apply and as you can see the HRDC
opinion is required. Employer should apply for such.

2. Opinion and validation are similar - the major difference is that when
applying for the opinion for the R82(2)(c) purpose employer doesn't need to
document that no Canadian candidate was found after extensive national
advertising of the position.

3. If officer approves job offer then 10 points in the Arranged Employment
factor are granted and there is also an opportunity to get 5 more points in the
Adaptability factor. Adaptability Factor has a maximum of 10 points, so if
those 10 are already awarded for other sub-factors then 5 points for Arranged
Employment cannot obviously be added, but if there is only 5 or less points so
far awarded in the adaptability then person who is awarded 10 points for
arranged employment will also get 5 extra points for the same in the
adaptability factor.

--

../..

Andrew Miller
Immigration Consultant
Vancouver, British Columbia
email: [email protected]
(delete REMOVE from the above address before sending email)

For confidential phone consultation go here:

http://members.yahoo.-
liveadvice.com/andrewmiller_canada

________________________________



"shash" wrote in message
news:447300.1034905697@britishexpats-
.com
...
    > Hello there,
    > Okay, I must admit to being totally confused! I have read so much
    > information regarding HRDC 'opinions' and 'validations', and so much of
    > it was conflicting, that I just don't know what is right or wrong
    > anymore, so perhaps someone out there is sufficiently well informed to
    > be able to set the picture straight for me...
    > Here is the scenario:
    > A person wishes to apply for PR, and as part of that application they
    > intend to submit an offer of employment from a Canadian employer. The
    > employment is not to commence until PR has been granted and the
    > person lands.
    > 1. Does the employer have to have the offer of employment checked in
    > some way by the HRDC?
    >2. If the offer of employment does have to be approved by the HRDC, is
    > this a 'validation' or 'opinion' or are they now one in the same?
    > 3.What exactly will give the person the 15 points for the PR
    > application? (10 points for the job offer and 5 for adaptability.) (I
    > did read somewhere that if you are awarded the 10 points that will
    > prevent you from getting the additional 5 points but that just didn't
    > make any sense to me.)
    > Is there anyone out there who can clear all this up once and for all?
    > Thanks.
    > Shash
    >
    > --
shash is offline  
Old Oct 17th 2002, 4:47 pm
  #4  
Forum Regular
Thread Starter
 
shash's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 36
shash is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: Experts please - HRCD 'opinion' v 'validation'.

Dear Andrew,

Sorry, forgot one other thing.

I guess it might be like asking 'how long is a piece of string', but do you have any idea how long it takes to get an HRDC opinion?

Thanks again.
Shash

Originally posted by shash:
Dear Andrew,

Thank you so much for the advice that you so promptly provided. At last some clarification on the matter! Thank you, thank you, thank you.

If I may ask you another couple of questions?

1. Could you please refer me to the place in the CIC website, (or wherever appropriate) where I can actually have a look at the full provisions of the Act you quoted, including the sections that you made mention of.

2. Do you know which form we should submit and what additional documentation, if any, should be submitted with the form and finally;

3.If the offer of employment is made by an employer in Vancouver, BC, should the appropriate documents be send to the main HRDC office in Vancouver or elsewhere?

Many thanks once again for all you help.
Shash

shash is offline  
Old Oct 18th 2002, 3:16 am
  #5  
Andrew Miller
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Experts please - HRCD 'opinion' v 'validation'.

It depends, but shouldn't take more than few weeks.

--

../..

Andrew Miller
Immigration Consultant
Vancouver, British Columbia
email: [email protected]
(delete REMOVE from the above address before sending email)

For confidential phone consultation go here:

http://members.yahoo.-
liveadvice.com/andrewmiller_canada

________________________________


"shash" wrote in message
news:447417.1034916460@britishexpats-
.com
...
    > Dear Andrew,
    > Sorry, forgot one other thing.
    > I guess it might be like asking 'how long is a piece of string', but do
    > you have any idea how long it takes to get an HRDC opinion?
    > Thanks again.
    > Shash
    > Originally posted by shash:
    > > Dear Andrew,
    > >
    > > Thank you so much for the advice that you so promptly provided.
    > > At last some clarification on the matter! Thank you, thank you,
    > > thank you.
    > >
    > > If I may ask you another couple of questions?
    > >
    > > 1. Could you please refer me to the place in the CIC website, (or
    > > wherever appropriate) where I can actually have a look at the full
    > > provisions of the Act you quoted, including the sections that you
    > > made mention of.
    > >
    > > 2. Do you know which form we should submit and what additional
    > > documentation, if any, should be submitted with the form and
    > > finally;
    > >
    > > 3.If the offer of employment is made by an employer in Vancouver, BC,
    > > should the appropriate documents be send to the main HRDC office in
    > > Vancouver or elsewhere?
    > >
    > > Many thanks once again for all you help.
    > > Shash
    > >
    > --
 
Old Oct 18th 2002, 3:16 am
  #6  
Andrew Miller
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Experts please - HRCD 'opinion' v 'validation'.

1. http://www.cic.gc-
.ca/manuals-guides/english/act-loi.html


2. HRDC form EMP 5274 - the form explains what documentation must be provided

3. Yes, HRDC office in Vancouver.

--

../..

Andrew Miller
Immigration Consultant
Vancouver, British Columbia
email: [email protected]
(delete REMOVE from the above address before sending email)

For confidential phone consultation go here:

http://members.yahoo.-
liveadvice.com/andrewmiller_canada

________________________________


"shash" wrote in message
news:447406.1034915364@britishexpats-
.com
...
    > Dear Andrew,
    > Thank you so much for the advice that you so promptly provided. At last
    > some clarification on the matter! Thank you, thank you, thank you.
    > If I may ask you another couple of questions?
    > 1. Could you please refer me to the place in the CIC website, (or
    > wherever appropriate) where I can actually have a look at the full
    > provisions of the Act you quoted, including the sections that you
    > made mention of.
    > 2. Do you know which form we should submit and what additional
    > documentation, if any, should be submitted with the form and finally;
    > 3.If the offer of employment is made by an employer in Vancouver, BC,
    > should the appropriate documents be send to the main HRDC office in
    > Vancouver or elsewhere?
    > Many thanks once again for all you help.
    > Shash
    > Originally posted by Andrew Miller:
    > > Looks like you are confusing a lot of issues here.
    > >
    > > 1. This is what Regulations have to say about "Arranged employment"
    > >
    > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
    > > --------
    > > 1. (1) In this section, "arranged employment" means an offer of
    > > indeterminate
    > > employment in Canada.
    > >
    > > Arranged employment (10 points)
    > >
    > > (2) Ten points shall be awarded to a skilled worker for arranged
    > > employment in
    > > Canada if they are able to perform and are likely to accept and
    > > carry out the
    > > employment and
    > >
    > > (a) the skilled worker is in Canada and holds a work permit and
    > >
    > > (i) there has been a determination by an officer under section 203
    > > that the
    > > performance of the employment by the skilled worker would be
    > > likely to result
    > > in a neutral or positive economic effect in Canada,
    > >
    > > (ii) the skilled worker is currently working in that employment,
    > >
    > > (iii) the work permit is valid for at least 12 months after the date
    > > of the
    > > application for a permanent resident visa, and
    > >
    > > (iv) the employer has made an offer to employ the skilled worker on
    > > an
    > > indeterminate basis once the permanent resident visa is issued
    > > to the skilled
    > > worker;
    > >
    > > (b) the skilled worker is in Canada and holds a work permit referred
    > > to in
    > > paragraph 204(a) or 205(a) and the circumstances in subparagraphs
    > > (a)(ii) to
    > > (c) apply; or
    > >
    > > (d) the skilled worker does not intend to work in Canada before being
    > > issued a
    > > permanent resident visa and does not hold a work permit and
    > >
    > > (i) the employer has made an offer to employ the skilled worker on
    > > an
    > > indeterminate basis once the permanent resident visa is issued
    > > to the skilled
    > > worker, and
    > >
    > > (ii) an officer has approved that offer of employment based on an
    > > opinion
    > > provided to the officer by the Department of Human Resources
    > > Development at
    > > the
    > > request of the employer or an officer that
    > >
    > > (A) the offer of employment is genuine,
    > >
    > > (B) the employment is not part-time or seasonal employment,
    > > and
    > >
    > > (C) the wages and working conditions of the employment would be
    > > sufficient
    > > to attract and retain Canadian citizens.
    > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
    > > --------
    > >
    > > So, in your scenario the 82(2)(c) will apply and as you can see
    > > the HRDC
    > > opinion is required. Employer should apply for such.
    > >
    > > 2. Opinion and validation are similar - the major difference is
    > > that when
    > > applying for the opinion for the R82(2)(c) purpose employer doesn't
    > > need to
    > > document that no Canadian candidate was found after extensive
    > > national
    > > advertising of the position.
    > >
    > > 3. If officer approves job offer then 10 points in the Arranged
    > > Employment
    > > factor are granted and there is also an opportunity to get 5 more
    > > points in the
    > > Adaptability factor. Adaptability Factor has a maximum of 10
    > > points, so if
    > > those 10 are already awarded for other sub-factors then 5 points
    > > for Arranged
    > > Employment cannot obviously be added, but if there is only 5 or
    > > less points so
    > > far awarded in the adaptability then person who is awarded 10
    > > points for
    > > arranged employment will also get 5 extra points for the same
    > > in the
    > > adaptability factor.
    > >
    > > --
    > >
    > > ../..
    > >
    > > Andrew Miller
    > > Immigration Consultant
    > > Vancouver, British Columbia
    > > email: [email protected]
    > > (delete REMOVE from the above address before sending email)
    > >
    > > For confidential phone consultation go here:
    > >
    > > http://members.ya-
    > > hoo.liveadvice.com/andrewmiller_canada
    "]http:/-
    > > /members.yahoo.-
    > > liveadvice.com/andrewmiller_canada[/url]
    > > ________________________________
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > "shash" wrote in message
    > > news:447300.1034905697@britishex-
    > > pats.com
    "]news:447300.103490569-
    > > 7@britishexpats-
    > > .com[/url]...
    > > > Hello there,
    > > > Okay, I must admit to being totally confused! I have read so
    > > much
    > > > information regarding HRDC 'opinions' and 'validations', and so
    > > much of
    > > > it was conflicting, that I just don't know what is right or
    > > wrong
    > > > anymore, so perhaps someone out there is sufficiently well
    > > informed to
    > > > be able to set the picture straight for me...
    > > > Here is the scenario:
    > > > A person wishes to apply for PR, and as part of that application
    > > they
    > > > intend to submit an offer of employment from a Canadian
    > > employer. The
    > > > employment is not to commence until PR has been granted and
    > > the
    > > > person lands.
    > > > 1. Does the employer have to have the offer of employment
    > > checked in
    > > > some way by the HRDC?
    > > >2. If the offer of employment does have to be approved by
    > > the HRDC, is
    > > > this a 'validation' or 'opinion' or are they now one
    > > in the same?
    > > > 3.What exactly will give the person the 15 points for the
    > > PR
    > > > application? (10 points for the job offer and 5 for
    > > adaptability.) (I
    > > > did read somewhere that if you are awarded the 10 points that
    > > will
    > > > prevent you from getting the additional 5 points but that just
    > > didn't
    > > > make any sense to me.)
    > > > Is there anyone out there who can clear all this up once and for
    > > all?
    > > > Thanks.
    > > > Shash
    > > >
    > > > --
    > --
 
Old Oct 19th 2002, 7:18 am
  #7  
Forum Regular
Thread Starter
 
shash's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 36
shash is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: Experts please - HRCD 'opinion' v 'validation'.

Originally posted by shash:
Dear Andrew,

Sorry, forgot one other thing.

I guess it might be like asking 'how long is a piece of string', but do you have any idea how long it takes to get an HRDC opinion?

Thanks again.
Shash

shash is offline  
Old Aug 25th 2004, 3:37 pm
  #8  
kaka123kaka2002
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Experts please - HRCD 'opinion' v 'validation'.

I actually called up and talked to the immigration toll free number for quite a bit of time today asking about this. They were quite ambiguous but it seems that there are possible cases where no HRDC validation is required for arranged employment points. From my discussion this is what i came up with.

I can describe two hypothetical scenarios :
1) if I am a student studying full time on the campus of a university and working full time at a research lab on the campus as a bonafide employee with all the same duties and perks as a bonafide research staff of the same lab, then i can actually submit that as arranged employment. I dont need a work permit because it is on-campus employment. I can also do work full time as it is employment as research associate in the same lab and doing the same work i do for a PhD, in addition to some other administrative tasks. The contract for this position states that i am allowed to keep employment until i graduate with a PhD, subject to renewal if i am found eligible by a) my immigration status and b) my competence and qualifications. I make enough points even without my canadian education, and even in the worst case timeline of 4 years, i get my PR before i finish my PhD. So no matter what, I will continue to be employed at the same place. This job qualifies as valid work experience and also as a valid offer of employment.

2) Both me and my spouse are international students on study permits. I can then apply for an open work permit based on my spouse being an international student. ( the clause ensures that there is no infinite loop - my spouse cannot apply for a study permit based on me.) I can then be working full time anywhere that meets an NOC job, and be studying part time and still credit this towards arranged employment, if my employer gives me a letter that says that he will continue to employ me after i get PR or until my work permit runs out - whatever comes first.

do you see any problems ?

Originally Posted by Andrew Miller
1. http://www.cic.gc-
.ca/manuals-guides/english/act-loi.html


2. HRDC form EMP 5274 - the form explains what documentation must be provided

3. Yes, HRDC office in Vancouver.

--

../..

Andrew Miller
Immigration Consultant
Vancouver, British Columbia
email: [email protected]
(delete REMOVE from the above address before sending email)

For confidential phone consultation go here:

http://members.yahoo.-
liveadvice.com/andrewmiller_canada

________________________________


"shash" wrote in message
news:447406.1034915364@britishexpats-
.com
...
    > Dear Andrew,
    > Thank you so much for the advice that you so promptly provided. At last
    > some clarification on the matter! Thank you, thank you, thank you.
    > If I may ask you another couple of questions?
    > 1. Could you please refer me to the place in the CIC website, (or
    > wherever appropriate) where I can actually have a look at the full
    > provisions of the Act you quoted, including the sections that you
    > made mention of.
    > 2. Do you know which form we should submit and what additional
    > documentation, if any, should be submitted with the form and finally;
    > 3.If the offer of employment is made by an employer in Vancouver, BC,
    > should the appropriate documents be send to the main HRDC office in
    > Vancouver or elsewhere?
    > Many thanks once again for all you help.
    > Shash
    > Originally posted by Andrew Miller:
    > > Looks like you are confusing a lot of issues here.
    > >
    > > 1. This is what Regulations have to say about "Arranged employment"
    > >
    > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
    > > --------
    > > 1. (1) In this section, "arranged employment" means an offer of
    > > indeterminate
    > > employment in Canada.
    > >
    > > Arranged employment (10 points)
    > >
    > > (2) Ten points shall be awarded to a skilled worker for arranged
    > > employment in
    > > Canada if they are able to perform and are likely to accept and
    > > carry out the
    > > employment and
    > >
    > > (a) the skilled worker is in Canada and holds a work permit and
    > >
    > > (i) there has been a determination by an officer under section 203
    > > that the
    > > performance of the employment by the skilled worker would be
    > > likely to result
    > > in a neutral or positive economic effect in Canada,
    > >
    > > (ii) the skilled worker is currently working in that employment,
    > >
    > > (iii) the work permit is valid for at least 12 months after the date
    > > of the
    > > application for a permanent resident visa, and
    > >
    > > (iv) the employer has made an offer to employ the skilled worker on
    > > an
    > > indeterminate basis once the permanent resident visa is issued
    > > to the skilled
    > > worker;
    > >
    > > (b) the skilled worker is in Canada and holds a work permit referred
    > > to in
    > > paragraph 204(a) or 205(a) and the circumstances in subparagraphs
    > > (a)(ii) to
    > > (c) apply; or
    > >
    > > (d) the skilled worker does not intend to work in Canada before being
    > > issued a
    > > permanent resident visa and does not hold a work permit and
    > >
    > > (i) the employer has made an offer to employ the skilled worker on
    > > an
    > > indeterminate basis once the permanent resident visa is issued
    > > to the skilled
    > > worker, and
    > >
    > > (ii) an officer has approved that offer of employment based on an
    > > opinion
    > > provided to the officer by the Department of Human Resources
    > > Development at
    > > the
    > > request of the employer or an officer that
    > >
    > > (A) the offer of employment is genuine,
    > >
    > > (B) the employment is not part-time or seasonal employment,
    > > and
    > >
    > > (C) the wages and working conditions of the employment would be
    > > sufficient
    > > to attract and retain Canadian citizens.
    > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
    > > --------
    > >
    > > So, in your scenario the 82(2)(c) will apply and as you can see
    > > the HRDC
    > > opinion is required. Employer should apply for such.
    > >
    > > 2. Opinion and validation are similar - the major difference is
    > > that when
    > > applying for the opinion for the R82(2)(c) purpose employer doesn't
    > > need to
    > > document that no Canadian candidate was found after extensive
    > > national
    > > advertising of the position.
    > >
    > > 3. If officer approves job offer then 10 points in the Arranged
    > > Employment
    > > factor are granted and there is also an opportunity to get 5 more
    > > points in the
    > > Adaptability factor. Adaptability Factor has a maximum of 10
    > > points, so if
    > > those 10 are already awarded for other sub-factors then 5 points
    > > for Arranged
    > > Employment cannot obviously be added, but if there is only 5 or
    > > less points so
    > > far awarded in the adaptability then person who is awarded 10
    > > points for
    > > arranged employment will also get 5 extra points for the same
    > > in the
    > > adaptability factor.
    > >
    > > --
    > >
    > > ../..
    > >
    > > Andrew Miller
    > > Immigration Consultant
    > > Vancouver, British Columbia
    > > email: [email protected]
    > > (delete REMOVE from the above address before sending email)
    > >
    > > For confidential phone consultation go here:
    > >
    > > http://members.ya-
    > > hoo.liveadvice.com/andrewmiller_canada
    "]http:/-
    > > /members.yahoo.-
    > > liveadvice.com/andrewmiller_canada[/url]
    > > ________________________________
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > "shash" wrote in message
    > > news:447300.1034905697@britishex-
    > > pats.com
    "]news:447300.103490569-
    > > 7@britishexpats-
    > > .com[/url]...
    > > > Hello there,
    > > > Okay, I must admit to being totally confused! I have read so
    > > much
    > > > information regarding HRDC 'opinions' and 'validations', and so
    > > much of
    > > > it was conflicting, that I just don't know what is right or
    > > wrong
    > > > anymore, so perhaps someone out there is sufficiently well
    > > informed to
    > > > be able to set the picture straight for me...
    > > > Here is the scenario:
    > > > A person wishes to apply for PR, and as part of that application
    > > they
    > > > intend to submit an offer of employment from a Canadian
    > > employer. The
    > > > employment is not to commence until PR has been granted and
    > > the
    > > > person lands.
    > > > 1. Does the employer have to have the offer of employment
    > > checked in
    > > > some way by the HRDC?
    > > >2. If the offer of employment does have to be approved by
    > > the HRDC, is
    > > > this a 'validation' or 'opinion' or are they now one
    > > in the same?
    > > > 3.What exactly will give the person the 15 points for the
    > > PR
    > > > application? (10 points for the job offer and 5 for
    > > adaptability.) (I
    > > > did read somewhere that if you are awarded the 10 points that
    > > will
    > > > prevent you from getting the additional 5 points but that just
    > > didn't
    > > > make any sense to me.)
    > > > Is there anyone out there who can clear all this up once and for
    > > all?
    > > > Thanks.
    > > > Shash
    > > >
    > > > --
    > --
 
Old Aug 25th 2004, 4:47 pm
  #9  
 
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 8,984
Andrew Miller is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: Experts please - HRCD 'opinion' v 'validation'.

No Arranged Employment Opinion from HRSDC is needed if applicant is currently working in Canada and holds valid work permit ("on campus" job not requiring work permit won't fly here) - regulations are quite clear about it (including latest published on August 11th amendments).

And of course applicant must have from the same employer a permanent job offer to continue full time employment on the indeterminate basis after she or he becomes a PR.

Job from your example #1 won't qualify as it is not on the indeterminate basis - it terminates once you graduate - and you don't have valid work permit.

Seems that you were speaking with someone who likes to speculate - note that you are not speaking with immigration officers when you call CIC, you talk to phone operators who are giving generic answers and not always the correct ones. Or, with someone who likes to share some theories with you, theories that have no grounds in law.

Just for your reference below is the section of Regulations dealing with the matter as per latest amendment:

-----------------------------------
82. (1) In this section, "arranged employment" means an offer of indeterminate employment in Canada.

Arranged employment (10 points)


(2) Ten points shall be awarded to a skilled worker for arranged employment in Canada in an occupation that is listed in Skill Type 0 Management Occupations or Skill Level A or B of the National Occupational Classification matrix if they are able to perform and are likely to accept and carry out the employment and

(a) the skilled worker is in Canada and holds a work permit and

(i) there has been a determination by an officer under section 203 that the performance of the employment by the skilled worker would be likely to result in a neutral or positive effect on the labour market in Canada,

(ii) the skilled worker is currently working in that employment,

(iii) the work permit is valid at the time an application is made by the skilled worker for a permanent resident visa as well as at the time the permanent resident visa, if any, is issued to the skilled worker, and

(iv) the employer has made an offer to employ the skilled worker on an indeterminate basis once the permanent resident visa is issued to the skilled worker;


(b) the skilled worker is in Canada and holds a work permit referred to in paragraph 204(a) or 205(a) or subparagraph 205(c)(ii) and the circumstances referred to in subparagraphs (a)(ii) to (iv) apply;


(c) the skilled worker does not intend to work in Canada before being issued a permanent resident visa and does not hold a work permit and

(i) the employer has made an offer to employ the skilled worker on an indeterminate basis once the permanent resident visa is issued to the skilled worker, and

(ii) an officer has approved that offer of employment based on an opinion provided to the officer by the Department of Human Resources Development at the request of the employer or an officer that

(A) the offer of employment is genuine,

(B) the employment is not part-time or seasonal employment, and

(C) the wages offered to the skilled worker are consistent with the prevailing wage rate for the occupation and the working conditions meet generally accepted Canadian standards; or


(d) the skilled worker holds a work permit and

(i) the circumstances referred to in subparagraphs (a)(i) to (iv) and paragraph (b) do not apply, and

(ii) the circumstances referred to in subparagraphs (c)(i) and (ii) apply.

--------------------------------

I can't see anywhere in the above section that working in Canada without work permit (as in your example #1) will qualify for anything.

As for your example #2 - you cannot have study permit for part time study. You must take and attend full time courses. But if you quit studying and be working with valid work permit and get full time job offer as specified above then it will work.

And finally - you jumped here today into the thread that ended 2 years ago. Since that thread ended we had few changes to Regulations, pass mark, etc.


Originally Posted by kaka123kaka2002
I actually called up and talked to the immigration toll free number for quite a bit of time today asking about this. They were quite ambiguous but it seems that there are possible cases where no HRDC validation is required for arranged employment points. From my discussion this is what i came up with.

I can describe two hypothetical scenarios :
1) if I am a student studying full time on the campus of a university and working full time at a research lab on the campus as a bonafide employee with all the same duties and perks as a bonafide research staff of the same lab, then i can actually submit that as arranged employment. I dont need a work permit because it is on-campus employment. I can also do work full time as it is employment as research associate in the same lab and doing the same work i do for a PhD, in addition to some other administrative tasks. The contract for this position states that i am allowed to keep employment until i graduate with a PhD, subject to renewal if i am found eligible by a) my immigration status and b) my competence and qualifications. I make enough points even without my canadian education, and even in the worst case timeline of 4 years, i get my PR before i finish my PhD. So no matter what, I will continue to be employed at the same place. This job qualifies as valid work experience and also as a valid offer of employment.

2) Both me and my spouse are international students on study permits. I can then apply for an open work permit based on my spouse being an international student. ( the clause ensures that there is no infinite loop - my spouse cannot apply for a study permit based on me.) I can then be working full time anywhere that meets an NOC job, and be studying part time and still credit this towards arranged employment, if my employer gives me a letter that says that he will continue to employ me after i get PR or until my work permit runs out - whatever comes first.

do you see any problems ?

Last edited by Andrew Miller; Aug 25th 2004 at 4:52 pm.
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