citizenship and maple card

Old Sep 3rd 2003, 8:33 am
  #1  
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Default citizenship and maple card

my husband and I have lived in Canada for more than 3 years, now we just moved out of Canada to The States. And we are ready to apply for the Canadian Citizenship.
My question is do we still need the maple card?
Thank you!
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Old Sep 3rd 2003, 9:23 am
  #2  
James Metcalfe
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Default Re: citizenship and maple card

Sounds like poor planning to me. You cannot apply for Citozenship in Canada
unless you are residing in Canada at time of application.

Jim Metcalfe




"gouzai" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > my husband and I have lived in Canada for more than 3 years, now we just
    > moved out of Canada to The States. And we are ready to apply for the
    > Canadian Citizenship.
    > My question is do we still need the maple card?
    > Thank you!
    > --
    > Posted via http://britishexpats.com
 
Old Sep 4th 2003, 1:04 am
  #3  
Clint Eastwood
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: citizenship and maple card

sounds like everybody moving out.
"gouzai" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > my husband and I have lived in Canada for more than 3 years, now we just
    > moved out of Canada to The States. And we are ready to apply for the
    > Canadian Citizenship.
    > My question is do we still need the maple card?
    > Thank you!
    > --
    > Posted via http://britishexpats.com
 
Old Sep 4th 2003, 4:51 am
  #4  
Mr. Pomegranate
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Default Re: citizenship and maple card

"James Metcalfe" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<C%[email protected]>...
    > Sounds like poor planning to me. You cannot apply for Citozenship in Canada
    > unless you are residing in Canada at time of application.

Not necessarily. They could still apply if at least one of them was
recruited from Canada to a position with a Canadian employer in the
U.S.
 
Old Sep 4th 2003, 5:02 am
  #5  
Andrew Miller
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: citizenship and maple card

Absolutely not true. Where did you hear such nonsense?

--

../..

Andrew Miller
Immigration Consultant
Vancouver, British Columbia
email: [email protected]
(delete REMOVE from the above address before sending email)
________________________________


"Mr. Pomegranate" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > "James Metcalfe" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<C%[email protected]>...
    > > Sounds like poor planning to me. You cannot apply for Citozenship in
Canada
    > > unless you are residing in Canada at time of application.
    > Not necessarily. They could still apply if at least one of them was
    > recruited from Canada to a position with a Canadian employer in the
    > U.S.
 
Old Sep 4th 2003, 7:44 am
  #6  
James Metcalfe
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: citizenship and maple card

A.M. : I trust you agree that Mr. Pomegranite is a living proof that a
little knowledge is dangerous.

Jim Metcalfe



"Andrew Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > Absolutely not true. Where did you hear such nonsense?
    > --
    > ../..
    > Andrew Miller
    > Immigration Consultant
    > Vancouver, British Columbia
    > email: [email protected]
    > (delete REMOVE from the above address before sending email)
    > ________________________________
    > "Mr. Pomegranate" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > "James Metcalfe" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:<C%[email protected]>...
    > > > Sounds like poor planning to me. You cannot apply for Citozenship in
    > Canada
    > > > unless you are residing in Canada at time of application.
    > >
    > > Not necessarily. They could still apply if at least one of them was
    > > recruited from Canada to a position with a Canadian employer in the
    > > U.S.
 
Old Sep 4th 2003, 8:09 am
  #7  
Andrew Miller
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: citizenship and maple card

James,

He is one of many examples of people who try to apply rather foolishly
misinterpreted rule from one law into a situation covered by completely
different law - such approach is indeed very dangerous.

--

../..

Andrew Miller
Immigration Consultant
Vancouver, British Columbia
email: [email protected]
(delete REMOVE from the above address before sending email)
________________________________


"James Metcalfe" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > A.M. : I trust you agree that Mr. Pomegranite is a living proof that a
    > little knowledge is dangerous.
    > Jim Metcalfe
    > "Andrew Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > Absolutely not true. Where did you hear such nonsense?
    > >
    > > --
    > >
    > > ../..
    > >
    > > Andrew Miller
    > > Immigration Consultant
    > > Vancouver, British Columbia
    > > email: [email protected]
    > > (delete REMOVE from the above address before sending email)
    > > ________________________________
    > >
    > >
    > > "Mr. Pomegranate" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]...
    > > > "James Metcalfe" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:<C%[email protected]>...
    > > > > Sounds like poor planning to me. You cannot apply for Citozenship in
    > > Canada
    > > > > unless you are residing in Canada at time of application.
    > > >
    > > > Not necessarily. They could still apply if at least one of them was
    > > > recruited from Canada to a position with a Canadian employer in the
    > > > U.S.
    > >
    > >
 
Old Sep 4th 2003, 1:52 pm
  #8  
Mr. Pomegranate
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: citizenship and maple card

"Andrew Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]> ...
    > He is one of many examples of people who try to apply rather foolishly
    > misinterpreted rule from one law into a situation covered by completely
    > different law - such approach is indeed very dangerous.

Mr. Miller,

Thank you for correcting me, but why ask where I heard such nonsense
when you already know?

Perhaps you could clear things up for me. The application materials
for citizenship list many requirements, but current residence in
Canada isn't one of them. What is the basis of that requirement?

People have repeatedly told me that one must intend to make Canada
one's home in order to apply for citizenship, but I don't find that
in the act or regulations either. Could one, therefore, live in
Canada for just over three years, apply for citizenship and then leave
the country permanently, except to come back to make the oath of
citizenship?
 
Old Sep 4th 2003, 2:20 pm
  #9  
Andrew Miller
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: citizenship and maple card

You must intend to make Canada your place of primary residence when you
apply for PR visa. You must reside as a PR in Canada and meet eligibility
requirements to apply for citizenship.

Read Citizenship Act and it's Regulations and you'll find that you must be
present in Canada in order to apply for citizenship.

In theory one may apply while in Canada and then leave, but be aware that it
may jeopardize the process.

And I still don't know where you heard the nonsense you mentioned in your
previous post - I only know that it is a nonsense and I may suspect what you
messed up with, but I don't know it as you didn't tell us.

--

../..

Andrew Miller
Immigration Consultant
Vancouver, British Columbia
email: [email protected]
(delete REMOVE from the above address before sending email)
________________________________


"Mr. Pomegranate" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > "Andrew Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]> ...
    > > He is one of many examples of people who try to apply rather foolishly
    > > misinterpreted rule from one law into a situation covered by completely
    > > different law - such approach is indeed very dangerous.
    > Mr. Miller,
    > Thank you for correcting me, but why ask where I heard such nonsense
    > when you already know?
    > Perhaps you could clear things up for me. The application materials
    > for citizenship list many requirements, but current residence in
    > Canada isn't one of them. What is the basis of that requirement?
    > People have repeatedly told me that one must intend to make Canada
    > one's home in order to apply for citizenship, but I don't find that
    > in the act or regulations either. Could one, therefore, live in
    > Canada for just over three years, apply for citizenship and then leave
    > the country permanently, except to come back to make the oath of
    > citizenship?
 
Old Sep 5th 2003, 12:48 am
  #10  
Mr. Pomegranate
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: citizenship and maple card

"Andrew Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<FpS5b.4941$kW.2535@edtnps84>...
    > You must intend to make Canada your place of primary residence when you
    > apply for PR visa.

I thought last year's act removed "intent" as a factor in retaining
permanent residence. Is CIC still trying to read people's minds
instead of simply tallying up how many days they spent where?

    > Read Citizenship Act and it's Regulations and you'll find that you must be
    > present in Canada in order to apply for citizenship.

"Present" is different from "resident." If you've already racked up
your three years of physical presence and haven't lost your permanent
residence what prevents one from taking a quick trip to Canada to
lodge the application even though one might now be living in, for
example, the U.S.?

    > In theory one may apply while in Canada and then leave, but be aware that it
    > may jeopardize the process.

Why? What would be the legal basis for refusing citizenship in such a
case?

    > And I still don't know where you heard the nonsense you mentioned in your
    > previous post - I only know that it is a nonsense and I may suspect what you
    > messed up with, but I don't know it as you didn't tell us.

Perhaps, to quote your earlier message, I "rather foolishly
misinterpreted rule from one law into a situation covered by
completely different law."

There are many competent immigration consultants. Some people may,
therefore, make their decision on who to hire based on other factors
... like the way you treat someone who makes a mistake.
 
Old Sep 5th 2003, 3:35 am
  #11  
Andrew Miller
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: citizenship and maple card

You proved again your ignorance of the law.

"Last year's act" has nothing to do with citizenship - what was implemented
last year is the new Immigration and Refugee Protection Act (IRPA) which
governs only immigration matters.

Citizenship matters are ruled by completely different law - a Citizenship
Act which hasn't been changed so far.

My reaction (and Jim's as well) to your post was triggered by the fact that
you responded to someone else's question with completely wrong answer. If
you would be the one asking question then you would get the answer, but you
pretended to know the law and gave the answer which was a nonsense. It is
very dangerous as many new participants in this forum may take your answer
as a good one, follow it and lose as result. This is why we reacted the way
we did, just to make sure that everybody understands that you have no idea
about the law and that your answer should be dismissed. You didn't ask for
advice - you gave one and you gave the wrong one.

--

../..

Andrew Miller
Immigration Consultant
Vancouver, British Columbia
email: [email protected]
(delete REMOVE from the above address before sending email)
________________________________



"Mr. Pomegranate" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > "Andrew Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<FpS5b.4941$kW.2535@edtnps84>...
    > > You must intend to make Canada your place of primary residence when you
    > > apply for PR visa.
    > I thought last year's act removed "intent" as a factor in retaining
    > permanent residence. Is CIC still trying to read people's minds
    > instead of simply tallying up how many days they spent where?
    > > Read Citizenship Act and it's Regulations and you'll find that you must
be
    > > present in Canada in order to apply for citizenship.
    > "Present" is different from "resident." If you've already racked up
    > your three years of physical presence and haven't lost your permanent
    > residence what prevents one from taking a quick trip to Canada to
    > lodge the application even though one might now be living in, for
    > example, the U.S.?
    > > In theory one may apply while in Canada and then leave, but be aware
that it
    > > may jeopardize the process.
    > Why? What would be the legal basis for refusing citizenship in such a
    > case?
    > > And I still don't know where you heard the nonsense you mentioned in
your
    > > previous post - I only know that it is a nonsense and I may suspect what
you
    > > messed up with, but I don't know it as you didn't tell us.
    > Perhaps, to quote your earlier message, I "rather foolishly
    > misinterpreted rule from one law into a situation covered by
    > completely different law."
    > There are many competent immigration consultants. Some people may,
    > therefore, make their decision on who to hire based on other factors
    > ... like the way you treat someone who makes a mistake.
 
Old Sep 5th 2003, 9:48 am
  #12  
Rich Wales
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: citizenship and maple card

Andrew Miller wrote:

> Citizenship matters are ruled by completely different law
> - a Citizenship Act which hasn't been changed so far.

The Citizenship Act has, however, had minor amendments designed to
harmonize it with some provisions of the Immigration and Refugee
Protection Act (IRPA).

For example, paragraph 5(1)(c) of the Citizenship Act currently
requires that an applicant for citizenship "is a permanent resident
within the meaning of subsection 2(1) of the Immigration and Refugee
Protection Act". [That subsection of the IRPA contains definitions,
including the definition of "permanent resident".]

My recollection is that 5(1)(c) of the Citizenship Act used to also
require in so many words that the applicant has not lost permanent
residence by the time he/she is granted citizenship, but it doesn't
appear to say this now. Apparently, that point has been taken care
of by requiring the applicant to be a permanent resident at the time
of swearing in as a citizen -- which, in turn, is defined now in the
IRPA mostly in terms of the "two out of five years in Canada" rule.

I also took a quick look at the Citizenship Regulations, 1993, and
as far as I could tell, section 3 of the regulations (the part that
relates to applications for citizenship by permanent residents)
doesn't explicitly say anything about currently living in Canada
or impose any other residence or presence requirements over and
above the Citizenship Act's requirement that the applicant be a PR
or the IRPA's requirements for retaining PR status.

If there is, in fact, anything in the current Citizenship Act or
regulations that says explicitly that an applicant for citizenship
must currently be living in Canada -- which, as I understand the
new rules in the IRPA, is =not= a requirement for maintaining PR
status as long as the "two-out-of-five-year" requirement is being
met -- I would be grateful if you could cite the specific place in
the law or regs where it says this.

All the above in the law and regs notwithstanding, I would still
concede that it's quite possible that CIC's forms and database
systems for citizenship applications might very possibly assume
that all applicants "obviously" live in Canada, and that a PR not
currently living in Canada (even though that's a legally possible
thing to do) might for some reason find it difficult or impossible
in practice to apply for and obtain citizenship.

Rich Wales [email protected] http://www.richw.org
*NOTE: I've lived in both Canada and the US and have dual citizenship.
*DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer, professional immigration consultant,
or consular officer. My comments are for discussion purposes only and
are not intended to be relied upon as legal or professional advice.
 
Old Sep 5th 2003, 10:54 am
  #13  
Andrew Miller
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: citizenship and maple card

Citizenship Act states that:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
5. (1) The Minister shall grant citizenship to any person who

<...>
c) has been lawfully admitted to Canada for permanent residence, has not
ceased since such admission to be a permanent resident pursuant to section
24 of the Immigration Act, and has, within the four years immediately
preceding the date of his application, accumulated at least three years of
residence in Canada
<...>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------

In the "Interpretation" section the same act states pretty clearly:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
2(b) a person who is lawfully present and entitled to permanently reside in
Canada is deemed to have been lawfully admitted to Canada for permanent
residence
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------

Pay attention to the words "who is lawfully present".

And of course everyone should remember that application guides or
instructions are only that, nothing more, and CIC clearly states in such
guides/instructions that they are not the law and all legal questions should
be referred to the Act and it's Regulations.

And as Rich said - CIC when designing forms and guides assumed that law is
clear to applicant and that applicant is "obviously" present in Canada.

--

../..

Andrew Miller
Immigration Consultant
Vancouver, British Columbia
email: [email protected]
(delete REMOVE from the above address before sending email)
________________________________


"Rich Wales" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > Andrew Miller wrote:
    > > Citizenship matters are ruled by completely different law
    > > - a Citizenship Act which hasn't been changed so far.
    > The Citizenship Act has, however, had minor amendments designed to
    > harmonize it with some provisions of the Immigration and Refugee
    > Protection Act (IRPA).
    > For example, paragraph 5(1)(c) of the Citizenship Act currently
    > requires that an applicant for citizenship "is a permanent resident
    > within the meaning of subsection 2(1) of the Immigration and Refugee
    > Protection Act". [That subsection of the IRPA contains definitions,
    > including the definition of "permanent resident".]
    > My recollection is that 5(1)(c) of the Citizenship Act used to also
    > require in so many words that the applicant has not lost permanent
    > residence by the time he/she is granted citizenship, but it doesn't
    > appear to say this now. Apparently, that point has been taken care
    > of by requiring the applicant to be a permanent resident at the time
    > of swearing in as a citizen -- which, in turn, is defined now in the
    > IRPA mostly in terms of the "two out of five years in Canada" rule.
    > I also took a quick look at the Citizenship Regulations, 1993, and
    > as far as I could tell, section 3 of the regulations (the part that
    > relates to applications for citizenship by permanent residents)
    > doesn't explicitly say anything about currently living in Canada
    > or impose any other residence or presence requirements over and
    > above the Citizenship Act's requirement that the applicant be a PR
    > or the IRPA's requirements for retaining PR status.
    > If there is, in fact, anything in the current Citizenship Act or
    > regulations that says explicitly that an applicant for citizenship
    > must currently be living in Canada -- which, as I understand the
    > new rules in the IRPA, is =not= a requirement for maintaining PR
    > status as long as the "two-out-of-five-year" requirement is being
    > met -- I would be grateful if you could cite the specific place in
    > the law or regs where it says this.
    > All the above in the law and regs notwithstanding, I would still
    > concede that it's quite possible that CIC's forms and database
    > systems for citizenship applications might very possibly assume
    > that all applicants "obviously" live in Canada, and that a PR not
    > currently living in Canada (even though that's a legally possible
    > thing to do) might for some reason find it difficult or impossible
    > in practice to apply for and obtain citizenship.
    > Rich Wales [email protected] http://www.richw.org
    > *NOTE: I've lived in both Canada and the US and have dual citizenship.
    > *DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer, professional immigration consultant,
    > or consular officer. My comments are for discussion purposes only and
    > are not intended to be relied upon as legal or professional advice.
 
Old Sep 5th 2003, 6:20 pm
  #14  
Rich Wales
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: citizenship and maple card

Andrew Miller wrote:

> Citizenship Act states that: 5. (1) The Minister shall
> grant citizenship to any person who <...> c) has been
> lawfully admitted to Canada for permanent residence,
> has not ceased since such admission to be a permanent
> resident pursuant to section 24 of the Immigration Act,
> and has, within the four years immediately preceding
> the date of his application, . . . .

That's the way 5(1)(c) of the Citizenship Act used to read, but it
appears that this paragraph was amended by the same bill that gave
rise to the current Immigration and Refugee Protection Act. See
the final version of Bill C-11 (37th Parliament, 1st Session),
subsection 228(1). The current text of 5(1)(c) in the Citizenship
Act reads like this:

(c) is a permanent resident within the meaning of subsection
2(1) of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act, and has,
within the four years immediately preceding the date of his
or her application, . . . .

So, the "has been lawfully admitted" and "has not ceased" clauses
have been replaced by a reference to the definition of "permanent
resident" in the new IRPA.

> In the "Interpretation" section the same act states pretty
> clearly: 2(b) a person who is lawfully present and entitled
> to permanently reside in Canada is deemed to have been
> lawfully admitted to Canada for permanent residence

But since the current text of 5(1)(c) of the Citizenship Act
doesn't use the phrase "has been lawfully admitted to Canada for
permanent residence", the above interpretation wouldn't seem to
be relevant to that part of the Citizenship Act any more.

And the phrase "permanent resident" is defined in 2(1) of the
IRPA as follows:

"permanent resident" means a person who has acquired
permanent resident status and has not subsequently lost
that status under section 46.

Section 46 of the IRPA describes the ways in which a permanent
resident loses his/her status: by becoming a citizen; by
failing to comply with the residency obligation in section 28;
by having a removal order come into force; or by having a claim
for refugee protection denied.

And section 28 of the IRPA is the "730 days out of five years"
residency requirement.

Rich Wales [email protected] http://www.richw.org
*NOTE: I've lived in both Canada and the US and have dual citizenship.
*DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer, professional immigration consultant,
or consular officer. My comments are for discussion purposes only and
are not intended to be relied upon as legal or professional advice.
 
Old Sep 5th 2003, 6:36 pm
  #15  
Jaj
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: citizenship and maple card

The observation I would make is that anyone thinking of leaving Canada
just after applying for Canadian citizenship, or submitting an
application from outside Canada, should hire an experienced
professional *before* making any decisions.

At the very least, the law seems to leave a few grey areas, which
means it's not going to be a do-it-yourself job if you are serious
about getting approved.

Jeremy

    >On Fri, 05 Sep 2003 22:54:24 GMT, "Andrew Miller" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >Citizenship Act states that:
    >----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    >-------
    >5. (1) The Minister shall grant citizenship to any person who
    ><...>
    >c) has been lawfully admitted to Canada for permanent residence, has not
    >ceased since such admission to be a permanent resident pursuant to section
    >24 of the Immigration Act, and has, within the four years immediately
    >preceding the date of his application, accumulated at least three years of
    >residence in Canada
    ><...>
    >----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    >-------
    >In the "Interpretation" section the same act states pretty clearly:
    >----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    >-------
    >2(b) a person who is lawfully present and entitled to permanently reside in
    >Canada is deemed to have been lawfully admitted to Canada for permanent
    >residence
    >----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    >-------
    >Pay attention to the words "who is lawfully present".
    >And of course everyone should remember that application guides or
    >instructions are only that, nothing more, and CIC clearly states in such
    >guides/instructions that they are not the law and all legal questions should
    >be referred to the Act and it's Regulations.
    >And as Rich said - CIC when designing forms and guides assumed that law is
    >clear to applicant and that applicant is "obviously" present in Canada.
    >--
    >../..
    >Andrew Miller
    >Immigration Consultant
    >Vancouver, British Columbia
    >email: [email protected]
    >(delete REMOVE from the above address before sending email)

This is not intended to be legal advice in any jurisdiction
 

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