izzi81

We've been eligible for 3 months but I'm finally getting round to filling out the forms! I have a couple of questions though; as ever a new form brings new grey areas!

I'm confused by this question: During your elegibility period did you live outside Canada?

We did live outside Canada, because we didn't emigrate to Canada immediately on receiving our PR cards. So our eligibility period starts 16/10/2012, and we actually moved to Canada on 24/05/2013. So you would think I would click 'yes'.

*but*

When I click yes it tells me to include the form CIT0177 with my application. I took a look at that form and it doesn't apply to me at all - it is talking about living abroad and still qualifying that time as a Canadian resident (ie. in the armed forces). This is not the case (for any of the options on the form, so I can't complete it) and I've no interest in claiming this time as a Canadian resident because I wasn't!

So... do I tick the 'no' box? Even though this isn't correct because we were living outside Canada? Or do I tick the 'yes' box and not include the form because it's not relevant?


The other question I have is with the physical presence calculator. Our eligibility period starts 2012-10-16. It asks for when we were outside Canada. We gained PR status on 2011-10-15 and then went back to Scotland. We moved to Canada on 2013-05-24. When I'm entering this first absence do I say we left Canada on 2011-10-15, or do I say we left on 2016-10-16 (the start of the period they are interested in?) When I put in the 2011 date I do get a message telling me the date is outside the period that's relevant, but it does let me complete the form with that date.

I understand they're only interested in 2012 onwards, but saying we left Canada on 2012-10-16 is not technically correct.....

Help much appreciated (and I look forward to never having to type eligibility again! )

Aviator

It says during the 'eligibility period', not since you became PR. That would be 5 years back from when you sign the application and must have spent 1095 days in Canada in that time period.

Everything is the period from which you sign the application, to 5 years back.

izzi81

Thanks. It just doesn't feel right when they talk about absences from Canada with a 'from' date, when the 'from' date isn't actually correct. I think as you said because they are interested in the 5 yr period I will use the start date they suggest, but I might put in an additional document explaining. Then I'll feel covered :-)

Former Lancastrian

Actually it is correct its how its interpreted.
The vast majority applying for Citizenship need to meet the number of days (1095) and now back to within the last 3 years to be eligible however certain persons are exempt who are not actually physically present in Canada during that time i.e Crown servant (certain categories of public officials) or family member of a Crown servant.

izzi81

I just wish they'd put an entry in their guide or in the FAQ to clarify things...

What are your thoughts on the living outside Canada question and the CIT0177 it asks for?

Former Lancastrian

This is from the guide. Question 9 The Eligibility Period.

a & b talk about time spent in Canada so you must meet those requirements and it mentions nothing about the CIT 0177.

c talks about time spent outside of Canada and about the CIT 0177.

As c wouldn't apply to you then the CIT 0177 isn't applicable. Its understanding when you became eligible to apply and in bold letters it even states
We encourage applicants to apply with more than the minimum requirement of 1095 days of physical presence, to account for any miscalculations of absences, or any other aspect that could lower the physical presence total below 1095 days.

There are very rare circumstances that will let you count time outside of Canada towards your physical presence calculation. If you resided outside of Canada because either:

you
your Canadian citizen or permanent resident spouse or common law partner
permanent resident parent
was employed outside Canada (not as a locally engaged person) in or with:

the Canadian Armed Forces
the federal public administration
the public service of a province or territory
Complete the Residence Outside of Canada form (CIT 0177) and submit any supporting documents requested in that form with your application.

izzi81

But 'c' does apply to me. My eligibility period starts on 16/10/2012, at which point I was living in Scotland. Living there, working there, paying taxes there. Not living, working, or paying taxes in Canada.

The question asks: During your eligibility period did you live outside Canada?

Not 'did you live outside Canada with a Canadian citizen' or 'as a federal employee' or 'as part of the armed forces' (which it what it really means, given it's connection to the CIT0177, but that's not what it asks!)

How can I answer that I wasn't living outside Canada during my eligibility period? I was, it just doesn't count towards my residency as it was nothing to do with Canada....


Also looking at the the guide you quoted, it doesn't mention whether or not to tick the box, it just says in those circumstances to fill out CIT0177 to get the time taken into account for citizenship. So do I tick the box and not fill out the form....?

Former Lancastrian

This is where the interpretation gets lost

If you were living in Scotland how could you be eligible to have those days counted towards citizenship as you have to be physically IN CANADA to be eligible unless exempted under (c). Are you sure you are not getting mixed up with the Permanent Resident obligations i.e. the 730 days where you can be outside Canada.

izzi81

But I'm not looking to have those days counted. Those days are irrelevant except that they ask if I lived outside Canada during the period they're interested in. I did! That is all they ask, not 'did you live outside Canada and wish to have this time counted towards citizenship'. If they asked that I'd tick 'no'. But instead if I'm answering truthfully to the question they ask I have to tick 'yes', at which point it tells me to fill out CIT0177. I'm not ticking the box to have the days counted, I'm ticking the box because all it asks me is whether I lived outside Canada in that period.

We were eligible before they changed the requirement (we hit eligibility in July this year, I just didn't have time to deal with the paperwork) so we have more than enough time living in Canada.

At the moment I'm leaning towards ticking yes and including a letter which says why there isn't a CIT0177....

Former Lancastrian

In post # 1 you wrote we actually moved to Canada on 24/05/2013.
You were eligible to apply in July of 2017.
So between May 2013 and July 2017 the eligibility period DID YOU LIVE OUTSIDE CANADA?

izzi81

I gained PR on 15/10/2011. My period of eligibility is 16/10/2012 to 16/10/2017.
I was under the impression it was the gaining of PR that was the date that was used, not when we moved to Canada....? (I put in the dates as required by the form and that is the period of eligibility I was given. It was also the basis of our PR card renewal last year which went through with no problems...)

Former Lancastrian

I guess there is a misunderstanding.
In your timeline its all applications submitted, nominated etc and finally moved May 2013. So one could assume you were on work permits prior to landing is that correct? If no work permits then your eligibility is the date you landed as you don't become a PR until you officially land whatever that date was.

If you were applying today and its now the new rules you would count the 5 years from 15 Oct 2012 if on a work permit if not the date you actually landed.
only the five (5) years immediately before the date of your application are taken into account;
each day you were physically present in Canada as an authorized temporary resident or protected person before you became a permanent resident counts as half a day (up to a maximum of 365 days);
each day you were physically present in Canada after you became a permanent resident counts as one day;
List all your time away from Canada, including travel for work or vacation, in the last five years

You also stated this
My eligibility period starts on 16/10/2012, at which point I was living in Scotland. Living there, working there, paying taxes there. Not living, working, or paying taxes in Canada.
Again how does this date start your eligibility period?

izzi81

There wasn't room on my timeline to fit the whole long saga :-)

We came to Canada on holiday to activate our PR on 15th Oct 2011. We then returned to Scotland, officially permanent residents but not yet living in Canada. We moved out to live here on 24 May 2013.

The CIC website gave me the date of 16/10/2012 as it is 5 years before the day I was planning on printing out and signing the application - 16/10/2017. We've been permanent residents for longer than the 5 years so it's not taking into account the whole time we've been PR (back to 2011) because they're only interested in the 5 year period.

But it does mean there is a portion of that 5 years when we weren't living in Canada.

I really wish I'd got the application done back in July when we met the 4/6 rule, I could have avoided this problem altogether!

Former Lancastrian

So then the CIT 0177 IS APPLICABLE.

izzi81

But there is no option to fill in anything other that working for the Canadian govt somehow on that form.

It's title is: For Adult Citizenship Applicants Declaring Residence Outside of Canada as a Crown Servant or with a Crown Servant family member

It then says: complete section A or B as applicable.

Section A: Crown Servant Family Member
Section B: Crown Servant Applicant.

And that's it. There is no other option, there is nothing I can fill in on that form that's appropriate or in any way relevant to me.


It sounds like as I thought I need to tick yes, but it's impossible for me to fill in that form.