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Citizenship application and fingerprints?

Citizenship application and fingerprints?

Old Oct 20th 2003, 2:20 pm
  #1  
Olia
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Posts: n/a
Default Citizenship application and fingerprints?

Hi,

I have applied for citizenship in February 2003. Yesterday I received
a request to supply fingerprints. I have lived in Canada for 4 years
before I applied for citizenship and has never even talked to a
policeman. I heard that it is a common procedure if the RCMP check has
returned my name, but nevertheless I feel offended by their request. I
come from a small country and my name is not at all that common in
Canada and even if there is another person with the same name in
Canada, the chances of him being born on the same date are practically
zero!
So, my question is: What could happen if I refuse to provide the
fingerprints and ask CIC to go ahead with my application? If CIC is
concerned about my past, isn't it up to them to prove that I don't
meet the requirements of the Citizenship Act? I don't have problem
defending myself since I know I have never broken the low, but doesn't
the presumption of innocence apply for non-citizens as well?!?

Thanks!
 
Old Oct 20th 2003, 2:25 pm
  #2  
Andrew Miller
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Citizenship application and fingerprints?

There is no such thing as "presumption of innocence" in immigration law of
any country. You are watching too many movies and are confusing criminal
laws with immigration laws.

It is up to applicant to conclusively prove that all requirements are met.
Offended or not - it is you who must prove it.

Charles Fowler, L.L.B.
Attorney at Law
Berkeley, CA


"Olia" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > Hi,
    > I have applied for citizenship in February 2003. Yesterday I received
    > a request to supply fingerprints. I have lived in Canada for 4 years
    > before I applied for citizenship and has never even talked to a
    > policeman. I heard that it is a common procedure if the RCMP check has
    > returned my name, but nevertheless I feel offended by their request. I
    > come from a small country and my name is not at all that common in
    > Canada and even if there is another person with the same name in
    > Canada, the chances of him being born on the same date are practically
    > zero!
    > So, my question is: What could happen if I refuse to provide the
    > fingerprints and ask CIC to go ahead with my application? If CIC is
    > concerned about my past, isn't it up to them to prove that I don't
    > meet the requirements of the Citizenship Act? I don't have problem
    > defending myself since I know I have never broken the low, but doesn't
    > the presumption of innocence apply for non-citizens as well?!?
    > Thanks!
 
Old Oct 20th 2003, 2:32 pm
  #3  
Charles Fowler
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Citizenship application and fingerprints?

To all concerned:

I have not posted the message below signed with my name and posted
with faked headers pointing to Andrew Miller as the posting party.

Seems that someone (and I may easy guess who) is trying to discredit
myself and Andrew Miller - it is not nice and not very legal, so watch
yourself whoever posted it.

Charles Fowler, L.L.B.
Attorney at Law
Berkeley, CA

On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 02:25:27 GMT, "Andrew Miller"
<[email protected]> wrote:

    >There is no such thing as "presumption of innocence" in immigration law of
    >any country. You are watching too many movies and are confusing criminal
    >laws with immigration laws.
    >It is up to applicant to conclusively prove that all requirements are met.
    >Offended or not - it is you who must prove it.
    >Charles Fowler, L.L.B.
    >Attorney at Law
    >Berkeley, CA
 
Old Oct 20th 2003, 2:55 pm
  #4  
Robert
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Citizenship application and fingerprints?

"Charles Fowler, L.L.B." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > To all concerned:
    > I have not posted the message below signed with my name and posted
    > with faked headers pointing to Andrew Miller as the posting party.
    > Seems that someone (and I may easy guess who) is trying to discredit
    > myself and Andrew Miller - it is not nice and not very legal, so watch
    > yourself whoever posted it.
    > Charles Fowler, L.L.B.
    > Attorney at Law
    > Berkeley, CA
    > On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 02:25:27 GMT, "Andrew Miller"
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >There is no such thing as "presumption of innocence" in immigration law
of
    > >any country. You are watching too many movies and are confusing criminal
    > >laws with immigration laws.
    > >
    > >It is up to applicant to conclusively prove that all requirements are
met.
    > >Offended or not - it is you who must prove it.
    > >
    > >Charles Fowler, L.L.B.
    > >Attorney at Law
    > >Berkeley, CA
    > >
    > >
Hi Charles

It is either "a very good spoof" as most of the trace is identical to
Andrews or someone on the same ISP as Andrew, They even forged the issue IP.
 
Old Oct 20th 2003, 3:10 pm
  #5  
Charles Fowler
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Citizenship application and fingerprints?

Hi Robert,

This is what I concluded as well. Good fake, but not that difficult to
make - my 10 years old daughter knows how to do it when she needs to
while downloading some music... :-)

In the meantime I called Andrew directly and he not only assured me
that he hasn't posted anything with my signature but he hasn't been
posting at all for past several hours due to some technical problems
with his ISP.

Charles Fowler, L.L.B.
Attorney at Law
Berkeley, CA


On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 02:55:11 GMT, "Robert" <[email protected]>
wrote:

    >"Charles Fowler, L.L.B." <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >news:[email protected]...
    >> To all concerned:
    >> I have not posted the message below signed with my name and posted
    >> with faked headers pointing to Andrew Miller as the posting party.
    >> Seems that someone (and I may easy guess who) is trying to discredit
    >> myself and Andrew Miller - it is not nice and not very legal, so watch
    >> yourself whoever posted it.
    >> Charles Fowler, L.L.B.
    >> Attorney at Law
    >> Berkeley, CA
    >> On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 02:25:27 GMT, "Andrew Miller"
    >> <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> >There is no such thing as "presumption of innocence" in immigration law
    >of
    >> >any country. You are watching too many movies and are confusing criminal
    >> >laws with immigration laws.
    >> >
    >> >It is up to applicant to conclusively prove that all requirements are
    >met.
    >> >Offended or not - it is you who must prove it.
    >> >
    >> >Charles Fowler, L.L.B.
    >> >Attorney at Law
    >> >Berkeley, CA
    >> >
    >> >
    >Hi Charles
    >It is either "a very good spoof" as most of the trace is identical to
    >Andrews or someone on the same ISP as Andrew, They even forged the issue IP.
 
Old Oct 21st 2003, 12:39 pm
  #6  
Olia
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Citizenship application and fingerprints?

"Charles Fowler, L.L.B." <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>. ..
    > Hi Robert,
    >
    > This is what I concluded as well. Good fake, but not that difficult to
    > make - my 10 years old daughter knows how to do it when she needs to
    > while downloading some music... :-)
    >
    > In the meantime I called Andrew directly and he not only assured me
    > that he hasn't posted anything with my signature but he hasn't been
    > posting at all for past several hours due to some technical problems
    > with his ISP.
    >
    > Charles Fowler, L.L.B.
    > Attorney at Law
    > Berkeley, CA
    >
    >
    > On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 02:55:11 GMT, "Robert" <[email protected]>
    > wrote:
    >

Now that we have cleared up who has posted what, could somebody
please answer my question?

Charles Fowler, Andrew Miller, all other experts,
Do you also think that I have watched too many movies and what do YOU
think will happen if I refuse to supply the fingerprints?

Thank you for your time!
 
Old Oct 21st 2003, 12:51 pm
  #7  
Andrew Miller
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Citizenship application and fingerprints?

The answer you got (regardless who posted it) was quite correct and to the
point. It is you who must prove that you meet all requirements, thus you
need to provide fingerprints as requested. It is only in criminal law of
many countries that you are innocent until proven guilty. So far you are not
charged with anything and it is not the criminal law you are dealing with.
If your fingerprints match some bad thing in RCMP database then you may
fight it to clear your name if you are innocent, but for now just submit
what you are asked for.

You may find that often fingerprints and RCMP and/or CSIS clearance are
needed to get certain jobs, firearm permit, for liquor license, etc. - and
again, it is nothing about being innocent until proven guilty, it is all
about meeting requirements for something you applied for and want to get.

--

../..

Andrew Miller
Immigration Consultant
Vancouver, British Columbia
email: [email protected]
(delete REMOVE from the above address before sending email)
________________________________


"Olia" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > Now that we have cleared up who has posted what, could somebody
    > please answer my question?
    > Charles Fowler, Andrew Miller, all other experts,
    > Do you also think that I have watched too many movies and what do YOU
    > think will happen if I refuse to supply the fingerprints?
    > Thank you for your time!
 
Old Oct 21st 2003, 2:07 pm
  #8  
Ravi Rao
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Spoofing on usenet (was) Re: Citizenship application and fingerprints?

In article <[email protected]>, Charles Fowler, L.L.B. wrote:

    > I have not posted the message below signed with my name and posted
    > with faked headers pointing to Andrew Miller as the posting party.

Some people have too much time on their hands -- wow.

    > Seems that someone (and I may easy guess who) is trying to discredit
    > myself and Andrew Miller - it is not nice and not very legal, so watch
    > yourself whoever posted it.

I wonder if there exist cyber-laws to take down usenet spoofers.

I'd be really surprised if there exist any in any country.

Oh well,

--ravi.
 
Old Oct 21st 2003, 2:23 pm
  #9  
Robert
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Spoofing on usenet (was) Re: Citizenship application and fingerprints?

"Ravi Rao" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > In article <[email protected]>, Charles Fowler,
L.L.B. wrote:
    > > I have not posted the message below signed with my name and posted
    > > with faked headers pointing to Andrew Miller as the posting party.
    > Some people have too much time on their hands -- wow.
    > > Seems that someone (and I may easy guess who) is trying to discredit
    > > myself and Andrew Miller - it is not nice and not very legal, so watch
    > > yourself whoever posted it.
    > I wonder if there exist cyber-laws to take down usenet spoofers.
    > I'd be really surprised if there exist any in any country.
    > Oh well,
    > --ravi.
You may be surprised that many ISP's frown on that sort of thing.
Some will even go to the extent of closing an account from a person who does
it.
 
Old Oct 21st 2003, 5:06 pm
  #10  
Just Joined
 
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 14
Dibbler is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: Citizenship application and fingerprints?

Do as they say and dont think your being victimized, its that simple. If you refuse it will look like youve got something to hide. Its not a big deal to do for them.
Dibbler is offline  
Old Oct 21st 2003, 5:07 pm
  #11  
Malcolm Ferguson
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Citizenship application and fingerprints?

Robert wrote:

    >It is either "a very good spoof" as most of the trace is identical to
    >Andrews or someone on the same ISP as Andrew, They even forged the issue IP.
    >

Maybe his computer's been hacked. Perhaps the technical problems with
his ISP were just a symptom of that.

Malc
 
Old Oct 22nd 2003, 5:40 am
  #12  
Ravi Rao
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Spoofing on usenet (was) Re: Citizenship application and fingerprints?

In article <YSllb.232119$ko%[email protected]. rogers.com>, Robert wrote:

    >> > Seems that someone (and I may easy guess who) is trying to discredit
    >> > myself and Andrew Miller - it is not nice and not very legal, so watch
    >> > yourself whoever posted it.
    >> I wonder if there exist cyber-laws to take down usenet spoofers.
    >> I'd be really surprised if there exist any in any country.

[...]

    > You may be surprised that many ISP's frown on that sort of thing.
    > Some will even go to the extent of closing an account from a person who does
    > it.

But that is not the law, right? Just as someone else said, the
person's computer can be h4x0r3d. Even if it not, they could simply spoof headers,
and when caught, claim innocence stating their machine was hacked.

Besides, yes, I *would* be surprised if many ISPs care about it. Having
myself worked with abuse-desks/help-desks across the world, and fighting
spammers et. al, I can tell you very surely that most ISPs don't care, and when
occassionally there's this one or two people in the ISP that does infact care,
their hands are tied down due to corporate policy/bureaucractic red tape.

In general I have noticed that Universities are very co-operative about
helping shut down spammers/abusers, but not really some private org. making $$

Finally, how hard is it to switch to another ISP and re-start, hey?

Call me a cynic, but I think cyberlaw has a heck of a long way to go,
before actually being 'useful'. But then I guess this is grossly off-topic.

--ravi.
 
Old Oct 22nd 2003, 1:26 pm
  #13  
Robert
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Spoofing on usenet (was) Re: Citizenship application and fingerprints?

"Ravi Rao" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > In article <YSllb.232119$ko%[email protected]. rogers.com>,
Robert wrote:
    > >> > Seems that someone (and I may easy guess who) is trying to discredit
    > >> > myself and Andrew Miller - it is not nice and not very legal, so
watch
    > >> > yourself whoever posted it.
    > >>
    > >> I wonder if there exist cyber-laws to take down usenet spoofers.
    > >>
    > >> I'd be really surprised if there exist any in any country.
    > [...]
    > > You may be surprised that many ISP's frown on that sort of thing.
    > > Some will even go to the extent of closing an account from a person who
does
    > > it.
    > But that is not the law, right? Just as someone else said, the
    > person's computer can be h4x0r3d. Even if it not, they could simply spoof
headers,
    > and when caught, claim innocence stating their machine was hacked.
    > Besides, yes, I *would* be surprised if many ISPs care about it. Having
    > myself worked with abuse-desks/help-desks across the world, and fighting
    > spammers et. al, I can tell you very surely that most ISPs don't care, and
when
    > occassionally there's this one or two people in the ISP that does infact
care,
    > their hands are tied down due to corporate policy/bureaucractic red tape.

having had peoples accounts CUT and having had my own account CUT in the UK
i would beg to differ on the ISPs dont care bit. A quick check round the net
found information to support my claim.

    > In general I have noticed that Universities are very co-operative about
    > helping shut down spammers/abusers, but not really some private org.
making $$
    > Finally, how hard is it to switch to another ISP and re-start, hey?
Simple fact is there are not as many ISPs as there used to be. so while it
is easy to change its not long before you run out of choices.

    > Call me a cynic, but I think cyberlaw has a heck of a long way to go,
    > before actually being 'useful'. But then I guess this is grossly
off-topic.

Yup it was but this aint a moderated group and it did concern regular
posters from the group.
    > --ravi.
 
Old Oct 23rd 2003, 4:10 am
  #14  
Mark Liu
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Citizenship application and fingerprints?

According to what I know, someone have the same name as you applied for
citizenship before, that is why their need a fingerprints.


"Olia" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > Hi,
    > I have applied for citizenship in February 2003. Yesterday I received
    > a request to supply fingerprints. I have lived in Canada for 4 years
    > before I applied for citizenship and has never even talked to a
    > policeman. I heard that it is a common procedure if the RCMP check has
    > returned my name, but nevertheless I feel offended by their request. I
    > come from a small country and my name is not at all that common in
    > Canada and even if there is another person with the same name in
    > Canada, the chances of him being born on the same date are practically
    > zero!
    > So, my question is: What could happen if I refuse to provide the
    > fingerprints and ask CIC to go ahead with my application? If CIC is
    > concerned about my past, isn't it up to them to prove that I don't
    > meet the requirements of the Citizenship Act? I don't have problem
    > defending myself since I know I have never broken the low, but doesn't
    > the presumption of innocence apply for non-citizens as well?!?
    > Thanks!
 

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