Breach of 730 days for PR card

Old Nov 13th 2016, 12:15 am
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Default Re: Breach of 730 days for PR card

Originally Posted by tinabootes
We all landed at the same time, but my children's and my photos were not excepted so we had to send new ones off, before they issued our cards so that's why my partners card has an earlier expiry date...
Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian
Its the date you did the formal landing that counts for residency obligation...
So if the Husband is out of time, then they would both be out of time as they landed at the same time?

So there wouldn't even be that option mentioned earlier when it sounded like she could still satisfy the PR obligation and sponsor her spouse?

FL...I'm guessing that there would have been some form of notice or letter included that refers to the obligation running from the landing date.
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Old Nov 13th 2016, 1:52 am
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Default Re: Breach of 730 days for PR card

On becomes a permanent resident of Canada on the date one officially lands in Canada.

One then gets a PR card which is valid for 5 years (issue date *can* vary), which is renewable, as long as one meets the PR Residency Obligation*. One can be a PR without a pr card, or with an expired PR card.

*PR residency obligation: 730 days of physical presence in Canada in (each) rolling 5 year period, counting backwards from today's date. There are a couple of exceptions**, which don't appear to apply in this particular case.

**Accompanying a CDN spouse outside Canada; being an employee of a CDN company & being posted outside Canada by said company; H&C: a house sale, or not selling, isn't H&C eligible.
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Old Nov 13th 2016, 5:15 am
  #18  
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Default Re: Breach of 730 days for PR card

Originally Posted by Shirtback
**Accompanying a CDN spouse outside Canada; being an employee of a CDN company & being posted outside Canada by said company;
Thanks. ..I came across that somewhere after I asked.
H&C: a house sale, or not selling, isn't H&C eligible.
That's not looking good then.


So what actually happens if, say, PR is granted, activated immediately/quickly and then the person returns to their original country and 4 years later they 'move' to Canada.

FL is saying that they haven't yet lost PR status but at the 5 year point when the card would need renewing they cannot possibly meet it (assuming no exemptions).

Does this mean that the PR gets in, no problem, takes up their new life in Canada and could then lose their PR status after living there a year?

What if during that year they actually apply, as a PR, to sponsor someone else? Until ruled not a PR, they are a PR even though they've already not met the obligation.

I'm imagining a crazy scenario where a couple - is doomed to fail the obligation and lose PR status - so one of them takes FL's suggestion and relinquishes PR and the other then sponsors them to get it back. I'm assuming it would have to be relinquished because you can't sponsor a PR.

So A relinquishes PR status. B knows they will fail the obligation when it comes to applying for PR card renewal, so before they lose their PR status they apply to sponsor A.

A then gets PR back (assuming there's no penalty for having relinquished) and everything's fine...until B applies for a renewal PR card, at which point it may be decided they lose PR status...and then A can sponsor B to try to get it back.

That sounds really daft. I've probably missed something obvious or just completely out of my depth

Using the hypothetical example in red can they get in after 4 years because they still have PR status. What if they decide not to renew the PR card because it's only needed for returning to Canada and they're not leaving. And then 10 years later they do apply for a new PR card by which time they've had 10 years continuous presence in Canada, but only one year in the first five since they became PR.
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Old Nov 13th 2016, 5:43 am
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Default Re: Breach of 730 days for PR card

A person who does their official landing on X date becomes a PR.
They could leave the next day.
Now fast forward 25 years where they haven't lived another day in Canada legally they are still a PR as they never relinquished it or had a report written on them.
There is no automatic loss of PR unless they become a Canadian citizen.

Where a person cannot or does not meet the residency obligation but they want to return to Canada or are thinking about it who do you think is telling them to do it?
Perhaps its an IRCC consultant or a lawyer and why do you think that is? it couldn't possibly have anything to do with a fee for them could it.
How desperate is this person to get to Canada and how much are they willing to pay.

Now not every case is like this but if there are no exemptions or very good H & C grounds then why fight the system? The IRCC consultant or lawyer cannot guarantee a win going up against the IRB.

The legislation allows this so CBSA/IRCC do their part and consultants/lawyers and the person do their part. the IRB and Federal Court make the ultimate decision.
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Old Nov 13th 2016, 5:51 am
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Default Re: Breach of 730 days for PR card

Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian
A person who does their official landing on X date becomes a PR.
They could leave the next day.
Now fast forward 25 years where they haven't lived another day in Canada legally they are still a PR as they never relinquished it or had a report written on them.
There is no automatic loss of PR unless they become a Canadian citizen.
But presumably that person would not have a valid PR card so would only be allowed in as a visitor. And then applying for a PR card would then highlight the failed obligation and subsequent withdrawal of PR status.

None of which seems relevant to someone who could be back in Canada before the initial 5 years was up.
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Old Nov 13th 2016, 6:00 am
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Default Re: Breach of 730 days for PR card

Originally Posted by BristolUK
But presumably that person would not have a valid PR card so would only be allowed in as a visitor. And then applying for a PR card would then highlight the failed obligation and subsequent withdrawal of PR status.

None of which seems relevant to someone who could be back in Canada before the initial 5 years was up.
No until they formally lose their PR status they are still legally a PR and cannot be treated as a visitor. The only automatic loss of PR status is when they become a Canadian citizen. There are thousands of PRs in Canada without valid PR cards or no PR card at all. There is no legal requirement under the Act to have one.
The legislation states to travel by a COMMERCIAL carrier then the PR must have a valid PR card.
So if they drive back across the border in their car then no PR card required and they can show their landing document as proof of PR status. CBSA/IRCC have to establish that their 730 day residency obligation has not been met.

Sill confused or misunderstanding
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Old Nov 13th 2016, 7:12 am
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Default Re: Breach of 730 days for PR card

Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian
...There are thousands of PRs in Canada without valid PR cards or no PR card at all. There is no legal requirement under the Act to have one.
The legislation states to travel by a COMMERCIAL carrier then the PR must have a valid PR card.
So if they drive back across the border in their car then no PR card required and they can show their landing document as proof of PR status. CBSA/IRCC have to establish that their 730 day residency obligation has not been met.
Yes I know about not needing a PR card to reside in Canada. I mentioned that bit myself.

But you keep throwing out irrelevant examples.

It's all very well saying that this person who has long since failed the residency obligation but hasn't been formally un-PR'd can come back by car but that's not much of an option when there's that bit of water in the way.

I suppose they could go to the US and cross that way, but what if it's someone who has listened to your advice about not losing their status and they don't do that? Perhaps they try to get a PR card prior to travel and their failed obligation comes to light then?

Hasn't it been said that Air Canada will fly someone without a PR Card? Is that because they have access to a person's PR status - not yet revoked?

And if that works for them, what happens if they put their foot in it upon arrival and it's really obvious they've not met the obligation?

Does the official who discovers this just ignore it or is the process to revoke now underway?

Which is all different to the situation where the five years following landing hasn't been reached yet.
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Old Nov 13th 2016, 9:00 am
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Default Re: Breach of 730 days for PR card

Originally Posted by BristolUK
Yes I know about not needing a PR card to reside in Canada. I mentioned that bit myself.

But you keep throwing out irrelevant examples.

It's all very well saying that this person who has long since failed the residency obligation but hasn't been formally un-PR'd can come back by car but that's not much of an option when there's that bit of water in the way.

I suppose they could go to the US and cross that way, but what if it's someone who has listened to your advice about not losing their status and they don't do that? Perhaps they try to get a PR card prior to travel and their failed obligation comes to light then?

Hasn't it been said that Air Canada will fly someone without a PR Card? Is that because they have access to a person's PR status - not yet revoked?

And if that works for them, what happens if they put their foot in it upon arrival and it's really obvious they've not met the obligation?

Does the official who discovers this just ignore it or is the process to revoke now underway?

Which is all different to the situation where the five years following landing hasn't been reached yet.
I am totally confused, who would report that you are in breach of the 730 days, would this only happen when you try to renew your card or when you try to leave the country.
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Old Nov 13th 2016, 9:04 am
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Default Re: Breach of 730 days for PR card

Originally Posted by BristolUK
So if the Husband is out of time, then they would both be out of time as they landed at the same time?

So there wouldn't even be that option mentioned earlier when it sounded like she could still satisfy the PR obligation and sponsor her spouse?

FL...I'm guessing that there would have been some form of notice or letter included that refers to the obligation running from the landing date.
We never had any formal letter/ notice stating our obligation when we landed, only found out when I looked on the website earlier this year. If fact we never got much.
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Old Nov 13th 2016, 9:07 am
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Default Re: Breach of 730 days for PR card

Originally Posted by tinabootes
I am totally confused, who would report that you are in breach of the 730 days, would this only happen when you try to renew your card or when you try to leave the country.
It is when you either:

* Apply for a travel document if you do not have valid PR cards, or

* Enter Canada.

At either time the official (high commission staff or border officer) needs to establish that you currently meet the residency requirement or are capable of doing so. If you have not met, and are not capable of meeting, the residency requirement the officials will begin the reporting process described above.
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Old Nov 13th 2016, 9:10 am
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Default Re: Breach of 730 days for PR card

Originally Posted by tinabootes
We never had any formal letter/ notice stating our obligation when we landed, only found out when I looked on the website earlier this year. If fact we never got much.
The (CIC) website has been up and running for well over a decade. It's unfortunate that you only thought to consult it earlier this year.

Last edited by Novocastrian; Nov 13th 2016 at 9:15 am.
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Old Nov 13th 2016, 9:46 am
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Default Re: Breach of 730 days for PR card

Originally Posted by BristolUK
Yes I know about not needing a PR card to reside in Canada. I mentioned that bit myself.

But you keep throwing out irrelevant examples.

It's all very well saying that this person who has long since failed the residency obligation but hasn't been formally un-PR'd can come back by car but that's not much of an option when there's that bit of water in the way.

I suppose they could go to the US and cross that way, but what if it's someone who has listened to your advice about not losing their status and they don't do that? Perhaps they try to get a PR card prior to travel and their failed obligation comes to light then?

Hasn't it been said that Air Canada will fly someone without a PR Card? Is that because they have access to a person's PR status - not yet revoked?

And if that works for them, what happens if they put their foot in it upon arrival and it's really obvious they've not met the obligation?

Does the official who discovers this just ignore it or is the process to revoke now underway?

Which is all different to the situation where the five years following landing hasn't been reached yet.
They are not irrelevant examples.
At the moment the OP is still a PR and legally will be until a formal decision is made. They can if they choose come back to Canada by right HOWEVER if it is discovered they are in non compliance with the Act then that is when the process begins.
They could be reported they might not. Im merely stating what could happen.
If they know they don't meet the 730 day residency obligation then why bother trying to come back?
Is it worth the risk?
At the moment no process to revoke has been started as they are outside of Canada and are not without a PR card.
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Old Nov 13th 2016, 9:55 am
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Default Re: Breach of 730 days for PR card

Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian
They are not irrelevant examples.....
Other than being absent from Canada for 25 years; not having a PR card and entering by car; having multiple applications with multiple countries....

None of that is relevant to the OP.
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Old Nov 13th 2016, 10:18 am
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Default Re: Breach of 730 days for PR card

Originally Posted by BristolUK
Other than being absent from Canada for 25 years; not having a PR card and entering by car; having multiple applications with multiple countries....

None of that is relevant to the OP.
Ya think there might be others reading this thread where any one of those examples might apply to them.

They currently don't and cannot meet the 730 day residency obligation. They are still legally PRs and have valid PR cards. Knowing what could happen to them they now have a choice to make and are now well informed and what could happen.
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Old Nov 13th 2016, 2:34 pm
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Default Re: Breach of 730 days for PR card

Originally Posted by tinabootes
I am totally confused, who would report that you are in breach of the 730 days, would this only happen when you try to renew your card or when you try to leave the country.
Perhaps it would help you to know that Former Lancastrian is a CBSA Officer.

Both JonboyE and FL have explained the circumstances of how you would (probaby) be reported and the first steps taken towards removing your PR status on entry to Canada or when your husband applies for a PRTD. Unless you have circumstances that would come under the 'humanitarian' section, it doesn't look good. I suppose theoretically you could fly into the US and drive over the border (thus not needing a PRTD) but you would be taking an awful risk and could still undergo scrutiny on entry to Canada.

You only need a PR card for flying into Canada - it's evidence of your PR status. If a PR card has expired then your husband would need to apply for a PRTD - he couldn't fly into Canada without one or the other.

You can read more under ENF23 and OP10 which you can find on the CIC website. http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resourc...uals/index.asp

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