Breach of 730 days for PR card

Old Nov 10th 2016, 8:33 am
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Default Breach of 730 days for PR card

Hope someone can help, with good advise.
We have PR cards that I thought expire 31/12/2018, we have not been able to move over until now, before end of January I hope, if I can get things sorted fast, family problems. I have just realised that my partners card runs out 17-09-2018 as his was issued earlier than ours so he now in breach of the 730 days in Canada in the last 5 years. We have been to Canada for 23 days this year but that doesn't help with his days. Is this going to cause us major problems when renewing? How strict are they on the 730 days, does anyone know?. Thanks in advance for any help you can give us.
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Old Nov 10th 2016, 8:54 am
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Default Re: Breach of 730 days for PR card

My recommendation in this kind of situation when there is such a lot at stake is always the same: seek advice from an immigration consultant or lawyer to know all your options. People on this forum really know their stuff but it's impossible to advise someone accurately and completely on the basis of what they write on a forum. You can't possibly know the whole situation. What applies to you, if there are any unusual circumstances etc etc may not apply to someone else.

By all means read opinions but if you have any doubts after that, see someone. It's too important to get wrong. If you do decide to do this, make sure that person is authorized to give advice:

Find an Immigration Professional | iccrc-crcic

S
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Old Nov 10th 2016, 9:20 am
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Default Re: Breach of 730 days for PR card

For anyone else reading this or in a similar situation

IGNORE the expiry date of the PR card.

The dates that are important are the date the person did the official landing in Canada and the date they are returning to Canada on.
If you have not met or cannot meet the 730 day residency obligation and are not exempt from meeting the 730 day obligation then you are in non compliance with the act and can be reported and issued with a removal order which can be appealed.

Section 7.7 of this link outlines any Humanitarian & Compassionate grounds that can be taken into consideration
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resourc.../enf23-eng.pdf

Each case is taken on its own merit and there is no blanket answer.

Yes IRCC/CBSA take this seriously.

A final decision if reported is made by a member of the Immigration Division of the Immigration & Refugee Board. IRCC/CBSA merely decide if a report should be written and referred to the IRB.
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Old Nov 10th 2016, 12:51 pm
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Default Re: Breach of 730 days for PR card

So worse case scenario could they still move over? Technically he's breached the 730 day rule only once they get to the end of the 5 years? If that's the case she could then sponsor him for a spousal application?
Or would that be too simple?
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Old Nov 10th 2016, 9:26 pm
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Default Re: Breach of 730 days for PR card

Originally Posted by DandNHill
So worse case scenario could they still move over? Technically he's breached the 730 day rule only once they get to the end of the 5 years? If that's the case she could then sponsor him for a spousal application?
Or would that be too simple?
At the moment both are PR card holders and they keep that status until they either become Canadian citizens or lose that status. A formal decision has to be made to lose status even if they are in non compliance with the Act as no decision has yet been made.
Yes if he lost status she could then sponsor him but the object of the lesson is not to lose PR status.
A PR has a right of entry into Canada even if they are in non compliance with the Act so yes he could travel back but that is when the fun begins.
CBSA establish residency obligation has not been met on entering Canada. A formal section 44 report is made and a provisional removal (departure order) is also made. An appeal can be filed within 30 days. An Admissibility Hearing would then be scheduled with the IRB which could be months down the road. The hearing is held and the IRB make a ruling that the report is correct and the person is in non compliance. The provisional removal order now comes into force and the person has then 30 days to leave Canada and if they don't then the departure order automatically turns into a deportation order. They must have the departure confirmed by CBSA.
They could also appeal the IRB decision which would take even longer and still lose.
All this would cost a bit of money and the end result is the same you have to leave Canada.
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Old Nov 11th 2016, 9:11 am
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Default Re: Breach of 730 days for PR card

Originally Posted by Snowy560
My recommendation in this kind of situation when there is such a lot at stake is always the same: seek advice from an immigration consultant or lawyer to know all your options. People on this forum really know their stuff but it's impossible to advise someone accurately and completely on the basis of what they write on a forum. You can't possibly know the whole situation. What applies to you, if there are any unusual circumstances etc etc may not apply to someone else.

By all means read opinions but if you have any doubts after that, see someone. It's too important to get wrong. If you do decide to do this, make sure that person is authorized to give advice:

Find an Immigration Professional | iccrc-crcic

S
Thanks for that, I understand this website is just people saying there views so might have to get some professional help but it now doesn't give me much time.
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Old Nov 11th 2016, 9:13 am
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Default Re: Breach of 730 days for PR card

Originally Posted by DandNHill
So worse case scenario could they still move over? Technically he's breached the 730 day rule only once they get to the end of the 5 years? If that's the case she could then sponsor him for a spousal application?
Or would that be too simple?
Wish it was simple but I got the feeling it will not be that easy.
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Old Nov 11th 2016, 9:17 am
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Default Re: Breach of 730 days for PR card

Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian
At the moment both are PR card holders and they keep that status until they either become Canadian citizens or lose that status. A formal decision has to be made to lose status even if they are in non compliance with the Act as no decision has yet been made.
Yes if he lost status she could then sponsor him but the object of the lesson is not to lose PR status.
A PR has a right of entry into Canada even if they are in non compliance with the Act so yes he could travel back but that is when the fun begins.
CBSA establish residency obligation has not been met on entering Canada. A formal section 44 report is made and a provisional removal (departure order) is also made. An appeal can be filed within 30 days. An Admissibility Hearing would then be scheduled with the IRB which could be months down the road. The hearing is held and the IRB make a ruling that the report is correct and the person is in non compliance. The provisional removal order now comes into force and the person has then 30 days to leave Canada and if they don't then the departure order automatically turns into a deportation order. They must have the departure confirmed by CBSA.
They could also appeal the IRB decision which would take even longer and still lose.
All this would cost a bit of money and the end result is the same you have to leave Canada.
Gosh all that doesn't sound good, might have to think about not going now, won't be happy about that but only ourselves to blame.
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Old Nov 12th 2016, 12:52 am
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Default Re: Breach of 730 days for PR card

Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian
At the moment both are PR card holders and they keep that status until they either become Canadian citizens or lose that status. A formal decision has to be made to lose status even if they are in non compliance with the Act as no decision has yet been made.
I'm sure you have said previously that it doesn't necessarilyfollow that someone not meeting the condition will lose PR status.
Yes if he lost status she could then sponsor him but the object of the lesson is not to lose PR status.
But if that is an option then it might be better to follow that option than other more time consuming ones.

That would likely mean a period for which he couldn't work. How long would that be?

CBSA establish residency obligation has not been met on entering Canada. A formal section 44 report is made and a provisional removal (departure order) is also made. An appeal can be filed within 30 days. An Admissibility Hearing would then be scheduled with the IRB which could be months down the road. The hearing is held and the IRB make a ruling that the report is correct and the person is in non compliance. The provisional removal order now comes into force and the person has then 30 days to leave Canada and if they don't then the departure order automatically turns into a deportation order. They must have the departure confirmed by CBSA.
They could also appeal the IRB decision which would take even longer and still lose.
All this would cost a bit of money and the end result is the same you have to leave Canada.
They could all happen that way. And you'd likely know more than most but it looks like a worst case scenario at every step of the way.

I mean you could travel on a long road, stop at every traffic light on the way and be late. Or you could get a green light every time and be early. Or get a mixture and arrive on time.

You referenced Humanitarian and Compassionate grounds earlier. The OP says her husband's card was issued earlier. You said to ignore the date of the card but I'm guessing that this was because he landed earlier without the OP. Is that usual for couples?

I like to think that CIC would say "we have a family legally in Canada as PRs except that the husband and father, in trying to establish the family here, landed earlier (I'm still guessing about the earlier landing) and consequently his actual residency requirement is a different period."

Would it be relevant as to how different it was? I remember reading stuff here about periods out of the country with a partner not counting as out of the country. Is that only for partners of citizens or does it count for PRs as well? If so, if the OP still counts as a PR and as long as she doesn't lose that status does his period out of Canada really count?

CIC thought process continues... "while it may be wrong to assume they had the same required dates it's a family unit and we treat them as a unit and it's not unreasonable for them to have believed what applies to one applies to all once they have been given status for all."

Of course CIC may not think like this but wouldn't it be churlish to say the least, to be 100% negative at every step given that separate spousal sponsorship would likely be a formality anyway? Or is there some punitive measure for not having met the requirement?

From my own experience of CIC I wouldn't be surprised by a "sorry, our hands are tied and we don't have the discretion" but many of your previous posts have suggested they do and posts made by others in recent years suggest that the incompetence and inflexibility they showed when turning our 6 month straightforward case into one lasting nearly three years isn't the norm that it was back then. Well, not the norm, but not exactly unheard of
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Old Nov 12th 2016, 2:39 am
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Default Re: Breach of 730 days for PR card

Originally Posted by BristolUK
I'm sure you have said previously that it doesn't necessarilyfollow that someone not meeting the condition will lose PR status.

But if that is an option then it might be better to follow that option than other more time consuming ones.

That would likely mean a period for which he couldn't work. How long would that be?


They could all happen that way. And you'd likely know more than most but it looks like a worst case scenario at every step of the way.

I mean you could travel on a long road, stop at every traffic light on the way and be late. Or you could get a green light every time and be early. Or get a mixture and arrive on time.

You referenced Humanitarian and Compassionate grounds earlier. The OP says her husband's card was issued earlier. You said to ignore the date of the card but I'm guessing that this was because he landed earlier without the OP. Is that usual for couples?

I like to think that CIC would say "we have a family legally in Canada as PRs except that the husband and father, in trying to establish the family here, landed earlier (I'm still guessing about the earlier landing) and consequently his actual residency requirement is a different period."

Would it be relevant as to how different it was? I remember reading stuff here about periods out of the country with a partner not counting as out of the country. Is that only for partners of citizens or does it count for PRs as well? If so, if the OP still counts as a PR and as long as she doesn't lose that status does his period out of Canada really count?

CIC thought process continues... "while it may be wrong to assume they had the same required dates it's a family unit and we treat them as a unit and it's not unreasonable for them to have believed what applies to one applies to all once they have been given status for all."

Of course CIC may not think like this but wouldn't it be churlish to say the least, to be 100% negative at every step given that separate spousal sponsorship would likely be a formality anyway? Or is there some punitive measure for not having met the requirement?

From my own experience of CIC I wouldn't be surprised by a "sorry, our hands are tied and we don't have the discretion" but many of your previous posts have suggested they do and posts made by others in recent years suggest that the incompetence and inflexibility they showed when turning our 6 month straightforward case into one lasting nearly three years isn't the norm that it was back then. Well, not the norm, but not exactly unheard of
Any decision about loss of PR status is either by

1. The individual voluntarily relinquishing it and CIC accepting the application to relinquish.
2. The IRB Immigration Division making a ruling.
3. The Federal Court of Canada making a ruling if appealing the IRB decision.

I don't believe very many if any would make it to the Supreme Court of Canada.

The Act specifically states that the obligation lies on the individual to maintain their residency obligation and sets out any exemptions to meeting it.
There are also grounds to appeal however the grounds will vary from case to case.
Many have retained their status by launching an appeal however the IRB have ruled in many decisions that the individual should lose their PR status.
What you and I or others consider Humanitarian & Compassionate grounds will differ in opinions and I don't make that decision.

Im sorry when a PR who has only to remain in Canada 40% of the time in a 5 yr period I have trouble equating that to being Permanent.
I am in total agreement with the exceptions. What I have found is that some will country shop and have several applications on the go or have been given PR status in other countries. If they truly wanted Canada as their home then in my experience why did Canada come last on their shopping list for countries?

Yes the law allows them to do this but then they whine and cry that the law is unfair because of a choice they made not to meet the residency obligation and probably lost their status in the other country by trying Canada and that countries laws were stricter than Canada's for maintaining their status.

Im not totally heartless but Im not a mug for a good sob story either.
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Old Nov 12th 2016, 7:51 am
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Default Re: Breach of 730 days for PR card

Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian
Im sorry when a PR who has only to remain in Canada 40% of the time in a 5 yr period I have trouble equating that to being Permanent.
I wouldn't disagree. I'm always a bit surprised at the idea that people get the PR stuff, come to Canada to 'Land' and then go off back to the UK again. No criticism of anyone intended but I wonder if it would make more sense to give people a period to activate it and back that up with an actual physical presence for a period with the clock starting at that point.
What I have found is that some will country shop and have several applications on the go or have been given PR status in other countries. If they truly wanted Canada as their home then in my experience why did Canada come last on their shopping list for countries?
But that sounds as far removed from the OP's situation as one can get. Do we know the reason for the delay in coming to Canada?

Last edited by BristolUK; Nov 12th 2016 at 7:56 am.
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Old Nov 12th 2016, 10:40 pm
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Default Re: Breach of 730 days for PR card

Originally Posted by BristolUK
I wouldn't disagree. I'm always a bit surprised at the idea that people get the PR stuff, come to Canada to 'Land' and then go off back to the UK again. No criticism of anyone intended but I wonder if it would make more sense to give people a period to activate it and back that up with an actual physical presence for a period with the clock starting at that point.

But that sounds as far removed from the OP's situation as one can get. Do we know the reason for the delay in coming to Canada?
We couldn't sell out house so that was the delay. We were only given 6 weeks to land to activate the PR status or we would of been out of time. I agree they should give you longer to land but that's how they p,any it.
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Old Nov 12th 2016, 10:55 pm
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Default Re: Breach of 730 days for PR card

Originally Posted by BristolUK
I'm sure you have said previously that it doesn't necessarilyfollow that someone not meeting the condition will lose PR status.

But if that is an option then it might be better to follow that option than other more time consuming ones.

That would likely mean a period for which he couldn't work. How long would that be?


They could all happen that way. And you'd likely know more than most but it looks like a worst case scenario at every step of the way.

I mean you could travel on a long road, stop at every traffic light on the way and be late. Or you could get a green light every time and be early. Or get a mixture and arrive on time.

You referenced Humanitarian and Compassionate grounds earlier. The OP says her husband's card was issued earlier. You said to ignore the date of the card but I'm guessing that this was because he landed earlier without the OP. Is that usual for couples?

I like to think that CIC would say "we have a family legally in Canada as PRs except that the husband and father, in trying to establish the family here, landed earlier (I'm still guessing about the earlier landing) and consequently his actual residency requirement is a different period."

Would it be relevant as to how different it was? I remember reading stuff here about periods out of the country with a partner not counting as out of the country. Is that only for partners of citizens or does it count for PRs as well? If so, if the OP still counts as a PR and as long as she doesn't lose that status does his period out of Canada really count?

CIC thought process continues... "while it may be wrong to assume they had the same required dates it's a family unit and we treat them as a unit and it's not unreasonable for them to have believed what applies to one applies to all once they have been given status for all."

Of course CIC may not think like this but wouldn't it be churlish to say the least, to be 100% negative at every step given that separate spousal sponsorship would likely be a formality anyway? Or is there some punitive measure for not having met the requirement?

From my own experience of CIC I wouldn't be surprised by a "sorry, our hands are tied and we don't have the discretion" but many of your previous posts have suggested they do and posts made by others in recent years suggest that the incompetence and inflexibility they showed when turning our 6 month straightforward case into one lasting nearly three years isn't the norm that it was back then. Well, not the norm, but not exactly unheard of
We all landed at the same time, but my children's and my photos were not excepted so we had to send new ones off, before they issued our cards so that's why my partners card has an earlier expiry date.
I thought the 5 years was from your expiry date counting back, not when you landed or am I thinking wrong? When we got our papers we only had 6 weeks to land or our landing date would of expired, doesn't give you much time to sort things out and it doesn't help when they don't tell you anything about processing times so we didn't arrange anything until this date. Now it looks like we might be to late.😞
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Old Nov 12th 2016, 10:58 pm
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Default Re: Breach of 730 days for PR card

Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian
Any decision about loss of PR status is either by

1. The individual voluntarily relinquishing it and CIC accepting the application to relinquish.
2. The IRB Immigration Division making a ruling.
3. The Federal Court of Canada making a ruling if appealing the IRB decision.

I don't believe very many if any would make it to the Supreme Court of Canada.

The Act specifically states that the obligation lies on the individual to maintain their residency obligation and sets out any exemptions to meeting it.
There are also grounds to appeal however the grounds will vary from case to case.
Many have retained their status by launching an appeal however the IRB have ruled in many decisions that the individual should lose their PR status.
What you and I or others consider Humanitarian & Compassionate grounds will differ in opinions and I don't make that decision.

Im sorry when a PR who has only to remain in Canada 40% of the time in a 5 yr period I have trouble equating that to being Permanent.
I am in total agreement with the exceptions. What I have found is that some will country shop and have several applications on the go or have been given PR status in other countries. If they truly wanted Canada as their home then in my experience why did Canada come last on their shopping list for countries?

Yes the law allows them to do this but then they whine and cry that the law is unfair because of a choice they made not to meet the residency obligation and probably lost their status in the other country by trying Canada and that countries laws were stricter than Canada's for maintaining their status.

Im not totally heartless but Im not a mug for a good sob story either.
This is not the case with us we only applied to Canada, but money and family came into play just as we got PR status so couldn't move until now. Now it looks like we are to late. ☚ī¸
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Old Nov 12th 2016, 11:02 pm
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Default Re: Breach of 730 days for PR card

Originally Posted by tinabootes
We all landed at the same time, but my children's and my photos were not excepted so we had to send new ones off, before they issued our cards so that's why my partners card has an earlier expiry date.
I thought the 5 years was from your expiry date counting back, not when you landed or am I thinking wrong? When we got our papers we only had 6 weeks to land or our landing date would of expired, doesn't give you much time to sort things out and it doesn't help when they don't tell you anything about processing times so we didn't arrange anything until this date. Now it looks like we might be to late.😞
Its the date you did the formal landing that counts for residency obligation.

I agree sometimes people are given short notice of when the COPR expires however many simply do a landing and then return knowing they have approx 30 months to sort out their affairs i.e. selling house, quitting a job, completing kids schooling.
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