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** `Phantom' residents to lose status **

** `Phantom' residents to lose status **

Old Oct 14th 2007, 4:02 am
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Default ** `Phantom' residents to lose status **

http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/266633

I'm only reporting. Most of you who are here long enough already know my point of view....
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Old Oct 14th 2007, 4:53 am
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Default Re: ** `Phantom' residents to lose status **

I've been here for ages but I generally stay on the Canada or Maple Leaf boards.

However, it seem to me that if what Carter Hoppe says were correct

"I don't think permanent residents who don't reside full-time and work full-time in Canada, and may even end up abandoning their PR status, are abusing anything at all," Hoppe argues. "That sort of thinking about immigrants is very much a 20th-century view and completely outmoded in today's global human capital marketplace."


Then what would be the point of citizenship of a certain country? Everybody could be a citizen of the world and travel around willy nilly without having to go through any checks whatsoever.
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Old Oct 14th 2007, 9:06 am
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Default Re: ** `Phantom' residents to lose status **

Originally Posted by lizwil98
"I don't think permanent residents who don't reside full-time and work full-time in Canada, and may even end up abandoning their PR status, are abusing anything at all," Hoppe argues. "That sort of thinking about immigrants is very much a 20th-century view and completely outmoded in today's global human capital marketplace."


Then what would be the point of citizenship of a certain country? Everybody could be a citizen of the world and travel around willy nilly without having to go through any checks whatsoever.
There is a distinction between citizenship and permanent resident status.
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Old Oct 14th 2007, 9:40 am
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Default Re: ** `Phantom' residents to lose status **

For those who are honestly trying to work and live full time in Canada it is a slap in the face. Especially all those people that wait for years to get their PR status, deal with the bad Canadian immigration system, have to deal with stroppy officials, sell homes, and have to prove they have some worth to canada.

Could be the very reason the Canadian immigration service takes so long to turn paper work around.
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Old Oct 14th 2007, 9:52 am
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Default Re: ** `Phantom' residents to lose status **

Originally Posted by roxye3
For those who are honestly trying to work and live full time in Canada it is a slap in the face. Especially all those people that wait for years to get their PR status, deal with the bad Canadian immigration system, have to deal with stroppy officials, sell homes, and have to prove they have some worth to canada.

Could be the very reason the Canadian immigration service takes so long to turn paper work around.
Canada needs to ask itself some searching questions why it wastes so much time and energy granting permanent resident status to those who have no interest in living in Canada.

If somebody does make the effort to move to Canada for a number of years, becomes a citizen and then leaves it's different - but these are people who never move in the first place.
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Old Oct 14th 2007, 9:55 am
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Default Re: ** `Phantom' residents to lose status **

Originally Posted by JAJ
Canada needs to ask itself some searching questions why it wastes so much time and energy granting permanent resident status to those who have no interest in living in Canada.

If somebody does make the effort to move to Canada for a number of years, becomes a citizen and then leaves it's different - but these are people who never move in the first place.
Spot on JAJ! I agree. At least those that have achived citizenship have earned the right to come and go, stayed and worked though all the paperwork, years required to have a Canadian passport and fully understand Canada.
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Old Oct 14th 2007, 1:01 pm
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Default Re: ** `Phantom' residents to lose status **

I guess I kind of forgot about the difference. But what I intended was to say the same as the other posters have said. I found it annoying to say the least that all those Lebanese Canadians expected the Canadian government to spend money on repatriating them to a country that they obviously never intended to live in in the first place. It bugs me when people come to Canada and take all it has to offer and yet make absolutely no effort to give anything in return. It bugs me when people come here and don't bother to learn to communicate in either of the official languages!!
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Old Oct 14th 2007, 1:16 pm
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Default Re: ** `Phantom' residents to lose status **

Originally Posted by lizwil98
I guess I kind of forgot about the difference. But what I intended was to say the same as the other posters have said. I found it annoying to say the least that all those Lebanese Canadians expected the Canadian government to spend money on repatriating them to a country that they obviously never intended to live in in the first place. It bugs me when people come to Canada and take all it has to offer and yet make absolutely no effort to give anything in return. It bugs me when people come here and don't bother to learn to communicate in either of the official languages!!
If they were Canadian citizens then they are either:

- born in Canada; or
- have a Canadian parent; or
- have lived in Canada long enough to become naturalised Canadian citizens (including meeting the language requirement)

It's unclear how your comments relate to this reality.
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Old Oct 14th 2007, 1:50 pm
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Default Re: ** `Phantom' residents to lose status **

As long as politicians will enact flawed laws people will exploit them. Many of said "Lebanese Canadians" exploited the laws (some fraudulently) to obtain Canadian passports without any intention of making Canada their home, but with every intention of abusing Canadian system and taxpayers at the first opportunity. And as reports show most of evacuees are already back in Lebanon, knowing well that at the next sign of troubles they can demand another evacuation.

And it is not only about them, it is about many others who exploit Canadian immigration laws in order to use and abuse our system and social programs, for example mentioned in article Child Tax Credit or to sponsor parents and leave them here on taxpayers expense while they are not living in Canada.

It all adds up, slowly but surely, and one day Canadians will say what Australians already said - you want to be Australian PR then you live here most of the time, you embrace Australian values and adapt to Australian way of life... or go somewhere else. And politicians will have to listen... or else...

Last edited by Andrew Miller; Oct 14th 2007 at 1:52 pm.
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Old Oct 14th 2007, 2:08 pm
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Default Re: ** `Phantom' residents to lose status **

Originally Posted by Andrew Miller
As long as politicians will enact flawed laws people will exploit them. Many of said "Lebanese Canadians" exploited the laws (some fraudulently) to obtain Canadian passports without any intention of making Canada their home, but with every intention of abusing Canadian system and taxpayers at the first opportunity. And as reports show most of evacuees are already back in Lebanon, knowing well that at the next sign of troubles they can demand another evacuation.

And it is not only about them, it is about many others who exploit Canadian immigration laws in order to use and abuse our system and social programs, for example mentioned in article Child Tax Credit or to sponsor parents and leave them here on taxpayers expense while they are not living in Canada.

It all adds up, slowly but surely, and one day Canadians will say what Australians already said - you want to be Australian PR then you live here most of the time, you embrace Australian values and adapt to Australian way of life... or go somewhere else. And politicians will have to listen... or else...
I agree!
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Old Oct 14th 2007, 2:20 pm
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Default Re: ** `Phantom' residents to lose status **

Originally Posted by Andrew Miller
Many of said "Lebanese Canadians" exploited the laws (some fraudulently) to obtain Canadian passports without any intention of making Canada their home,
Andrew
I'm not quite clear what you are trying to say here. If someone has lived in Canada for long enough to become a citizen, then haven't they got the same right to leave and spend time overseas as any other Canadian citizen.

Or do you advocate a two-tier Canadian citizenship where those born in Canada have more rights to spend time overseas than those naturalised?


but with every intention of abusing Canadian system and taxpayers at the first opportunity. And as reports show most of evacuees are already back in Lebanon, knowing well that at the next sign of troubles they can demand another evacuation.
In fact they can't demand anything. There is no law that obliges the Canadian government to evacuate Canadian citizens from anywhere, only moral and political pressure from the public. And if Canadian citizens deliberately put themselves in harm's way (for a second time, especially) then there is no moral obligation on the Canadian government to help them out if things go wrong.


It all adds up, slowly but surely, and one day Canadians will say what Australians already said - you want to be Australian PR then you live here most of the time, you embrace Australian values and adapt to Australian way of life... or go somewhere else. And politicians will have to listen... or else...
Australia's laws for holding onto PR status are similar to Canada's.

Anyway - are we talking about PRs here or citizens? Big difference ...
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Old Oct 14th 2007, 2:52 pm
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Default Re: ** `Phantom' residents to lose status **

Originally Posted by JAJ
Andrew
I'm not quite clear what you are trying to say here. If someone has lived in Canada for long enough to become a citizen, then haven't they got the same right to leave and spend time overseas as any other Canadian citizen.

Or do you advocate a two-tier Canadian citizenship where those born in Canada have more rights to spend time overseas than those naturalised?
No, I absolutely am not advocating any two-tier system. I'm only saying that some lived in Canada just to get passport, not to make Canada home. Many only slept in Canada while working in US and as soon as they got Canadian passports they stopped coming to Canada to sleep here. But many lied in their citizenship applications about absences and obtained citizenships fraudulently. Just look from time to time into quite often updated (recently in 03/'07) chapters of citizenship manual dealing with and trying to adjust to ever changing and growing problem of deception and fraud of many citizenship applicants, particularly in the area of residency claims.

I have absolutely no problem with those who really lived here, contributed to Canada and then later, well after became citizens (without fraud, omission, misrepresetation or any other kind of deception) decided to live somewhere else for various reasons - they have done legally what law allowed them to do. I may have some problem though and personally disagree with those who "lived" here with 100% of intentions from day one to leave as soon as they get passports or in many cases as soon as they filed citizenship application - but nothing we can do about them as long as law is as it is, until politicians one day, maybe..., enact the citizenship law that serves Canada, not their own political agenda (we all have dreams...).

I'm talking about those who from day one were and/or are set on deception and got or are getting Canadian passports by lying, omitting and misrepresenting facts. And in my opinion based on my own experience with many of my own clients (especially foreign students and workers in US and the Gulf) the deception is quite wide spread and growing rapidly since implementation of IRPA relaxed residency obligations for PR's.

Last edited by Andrew Miller; Oct 14th 2007 at 4:03 pm.
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Old Oct 14th 2007, 10:47 pm
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Default Re: ** `Phantom' residents to lose status **

Originally Posted by Andrew Miller
I have absolutely no problem with those who really lived here, contributed to Canada and then later, well after became citizens (without fraud, omission, misrepresetation or any other kind of deception) decided to live somewhere else for various reasons - they have done legally what law allowed them to do.
The law currently makes absolutely no provision about intentions. And in any case, intentions are impossible to police.

I may have some problem though and personally disagree with those who "lived" here with 100% of intentions from day one to leave as soon as they get passports or in many cases as soon as they filed citizenship application - but nothing we can do about them as long as law is as it is,
And what would you suggest realistically is done about them? There is no way to deal with this other than to increase the residence period for Canadian citizenship. Both Australia and New Zealand have increased their waiting times in the last few years (2 to 4 years, and 3 to 5 years respectively).



I'm talking about those who from day one were and/or are set on deception and got or are getting Canadian passports by lying, omitting and misrepresenting facts.
Perhaps. But someone who migrates to Canada, becomes a Canadian citizen and then immediately leaves has done none of the above.
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Old Oct 15th 2007, 12:53 am
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Default Re: ** `Phantom' residents to lose status **

Originally Posted by JAJ
The law currently makes absolutely no provision about intentions. And in any case, intentions are impossible to police.
Agree

Originally Posted by JAJ
And what would you suggest realistically is done about them? There is no way to deal with this other than to increase the residence period for Canadian citizenship. Both Australia and New Zealand have increased their waiting times in the last few years (2 to 4 years, and 3 to 5 years respectively).
This is why I clearly stated that I may have problem and disagree with them, but flawed law allows them to do it without any fraud, omission or misrepresentation. Thus nothing can be done and I dodn't suggest anything.


Originally Posted by JAJ
Perhaps. But someone who migrates to Canada, becomes a Canadian citizen and then immediately leaves has done none of the above.
You are confusing those who lived in Canada since landing and left after they became citizens with those who lie about living here and get their citizenship through fraud, omission and/or misrepresentation.
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Old Oct 15th 2007, 3:27 am
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Default Re: ** `Phantom' residents to lose status **

Regardless of some of the technicalities, I think the following quote within the article is key...

"The high application rate is related to what Canada can do for them, not the other way around."

Although the artical refers to middle-eastern applicants I think the above statement is true of many immigrants - Brits included. Not many people come here with a desire to contribute something to Canada. Its usually the other way around.

Which is a shame in my view.
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