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*** Canadian Experience Class update ***

*** Canadian Experience Class update ***

Old Jan 6th 2008, 1:09 pm
  #31  
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Default Re: *** Canadian Experience Class update ***

Originally Posted by Andrew Miller
On what basis?
Just by looking at the requirements, I have my reservations on the quota be filled right away. What's your basis for assuming 20K quota will get filled up right away?
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Old Jan 6th 2008, 1:23 pm
  #32  
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Default Re: *** Canadian Experience Class update ***

Originally Posted by crunch343
Just by looking at the requirements, I have my reservations on the quota be filled right away. What's your basis for assuming 20K quota will get filled up right away?
There is more than 200,000 work permit holders with at least 2 years work in Canada behind them already. And as some sort of novelty CEC will attract a lot of them. Just as it happened in first few years of Spouse/common-law partner in Canada class - a lot applied using this route for no valid reason, just because they could or they didn't know that they can be sponsored from outside Canada, even if in Canada already. Same will happen with CEC.
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Old Jan 6th 2008, 1:25 pm
  #33  
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Default Re: *** Canadian Experience Class update ***

Originally Posted by Andrew Miller
There is more than 200,000 work permit holders with at least 2 years work in Canada behind them already.
Wouldn't many/most of them already have an application for permanent residence in the system?
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Old Jan 6th 2008, 1:48 pm
  #34  
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Default Re: *** Canadian Experience Class update ***

Originally Posted by JAJ
Wouldn't many/most of them already have an application for permanent residence in the system?
Yes, many have. Also note that 200,000 is just a guess as CIC is not publishing how many work permit holders are actually in Canada. The number may be way higher as every year more than 110,000 get here with work permits, most with 2-years permits, some even with 3-years permits, many extending them few times - so we may be dealing here with about 5 years worth of work permit holders actually still working in Canada. This number will make it even easier to fill the 20,000 quota.

Also, if you look into posts here from those who are not happy with their job in Canada, but stick to it just for the sake of applying for PR (as for standard PR case with AE they must be working and keep work permit valid until PR is issued), you may agree that many may dump their jobs and jump into CEC which doesn't require being employed or even keep valid work permit at the time of application. Same with those who cannot extend their work permits anymore but want to apply (better late than never) for PR now.

I don't see a problem with filling up the quota, providing of course that CEC is implemented well before Summer ends.

Last edited by Andrew Miller; Jan 6th 2008 at 1:51 pm.
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Old Jan 8th 2008, 3:36 am
  #35  
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Default Re: *** Canadian Experience Class update ***

Hmmm, interesting read. Not quite what I was hoping for, or thousands of others I'm sure. I thought this scheme was mainly aimed at students who graduate from a Canadian university who are forced to return home after the expiration of their study permit? Quite stringent requirements to meet!

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Old Jan 8th 2008, 4:41 am
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Default Re: *** Canadian Experience Class update ***

Originally Posted by Shinkansen
Hmmm, interesting read. Not quite what I was hoping for, or thousands of others I'm sure. I thought this scheme was mainly aimed at students who graduate from a Canadian university who are forced to return home after the expiration of their study permit? Quite stringent requirements to meet!

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This is completely not what Ive been hoping for. What a disappointment.
Time to pack my useless Canadian degree and start building life somewhere else. Thanks for posting this Andrew.
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Old Jan 8th 2008, 10:37 pm
  #37  
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Default Re: *** Canadian Experience Class update ***

Yeah Agreed. Thanks for posting the proposed CEC details as it stands Andrew. Much appreciated!

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Old Jan 11th 2008, 5:06 am
  #38  
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Default Re: *** Canadian Experience Class update ***

Originally Posted by Shinkansen
Yeah Agreed. Thanks for posting the proposed CEC details as it stands Andrew. Much appreciated!

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I've seen too many fellow graduating international students that fails to find a job not because they are incompetent - but the paperwork scare of the employer when they heard the magic word 'International student'. So as it is evident, international students are facing double hurdles from the government

1.) That they are required to FIND a job 3 months after graduation
2.) That they will be telling their employee that they need an offer letter that states the contract could only last one year.

I mean this is utterly beyond logic for a country that wish to utilize the full potential of International student. IMHO, International student is one of the best source of immigrants because 1.)they somehow assimilated to Canadian culture, 2.)they're canadian educated, 3.) they displayed financial proficiency through 4 years of expensive education, 5.) pretty sure they wont be cleaning toilet or becoming a cab driver.

But why is that Canadian government makes it so hard for International student to be 'Canadian'. I was just hoping and kind of expecting this Canadian Experience to provide essential changes and just to make our life easier. That would be the only input I could be forwarding to CIC.
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Old Jan 11th 2008, 7:04 am
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Default Re: *** Canadian Experience Class update ***

The real problem with these proposed guidelines is that it really doesn't offer anything new to International Students already in Canada, primarily due to the work experience requirements. If they've already graduated, and have a year's worth of work experience, chances are they're eligible for another avenue to immigration. Moreover, the Post-Graduation Work Permit is not exactly a "gateway" to getting that year of work experience, to the extent that few students who major in non-professional fields (say, "English", or "Math" instead of Commerce) will find it easy to find a job in that "area of expertise"). Undergraduate degrees are by and large liberal arts degrees. The PGWP should be an open permit. Unless the conditions for the PGWP are eased, the CEC will be pointless for the vast majority of students.

What would really help would be to maintain tough "assimilation" requirements (language, education, etc...) but relaxing the work experience requirements (allow part-time skilled work to count - for example, graduate or undergraduate students as Teaching Assistants or Research Assistants), and lower the total required time. This would still provide some "adaptability" screening, but allow the new immigrants the opportunity to find where in the Canadian economy their skills can best be put to use once they graduate, irrespective of area of "expertise" or other considerations. This would yield a highly adaptable and motivated immigrant pool.

Anyway, that's my two cents, Andrew. Do you think there's any chance that something along the lines of what I sketched out above is likely to happen? Any chance CIC will substantially revise their proposed criteria or is the "consultations" just CYA?
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Old Jan 11th 2008, 11:27 am
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Default Re: *** Canadian Experience Class update ***

I'm sorry but I just can't agree with statement that graduating students can't find jobs - it is extremely easy to find jobs today and all it takes is a half page letter from employer offering the temporary job. No HRSDC approval needed.

If 110,000+ can get work permits each year from abroad (with employer going through the hassle of LMO) but someone completing one to few years education in Canada, knowing the country, language and being able to meet with employers with no hassle claims not being able to find job then what it tells you about the abilities of graduating in Canada student? Students can look for job well before graduation and many can already work off campus during study under current law.

There is no 90 days from graduation to look for job - you may look for job as soon as you come to Canada or even before. The 90 days it to submit application for work permit.

As for the CEC program - it is just being consulted and it may or may not be revised. Time will tell.
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Old Jan 11th 2008, 1:59 pm
  #41  
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Default Re: *** Canadian Experience Class update ***

Re: Andrew

From my point of view, I could challenge your opinion / perspective in this matter.

Here is why your reasoning might not work 100%... or simply.. its not as easy as you said it.

1.) International students compete on entry level job as oppose to some niche foreign workers area that is usually on shortage. The avaliability for them to hire entry level positions are abundant and is rarely on shortage accross many discipline area.

2.) Entry level positions are usually meant for long run - for company, I went to a prominent corporation presentation (Procter & Gamble) and they said that they rarely hire International student because they see it as a 'risky investment'. Meaning = the one year temporary things bug them off and why dont just get local students with more prospect of them staying around

3.) People can't actively look for jobs until they are at least one year away from graduation. You got the reality check only when you start applying full-time job with the credentials that you have on 3rd year. Yes you can look at the paper and start looking for jobs of your dream - but this is not calling 'looking for jobs'

4.) Note also that the job offer needs to be relevant to the degree youre pursuing. Its not just any half page offer letter.

Also I notice how employers in Canada are so unfamiliar with the International students system in Canada. I have heard some experience of friends going to interview of which they refused to give job offer until they got a 'work permit' so there you go, the whole fiasco of part where they need to explain what it is.

Canadian system toward tapping International students are much inferior to the one implemented in countries like Australia, of which facing similar skilled labour shortage. In Australia, simply, if you take the 'on demand' degree - and meeting other requirements, but no job experience - they can just apply for Permanent residence.

All we often hoped for is just for us, International student to be given the same opportunity as local student in finding a job - no more and no less. And I cant see the why that cannot be done?

Last edited by Ethel; Jan 11th 2008 at 2:03 pm.
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Old Jan 11th 2008, 2:16 pm
  #42  
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Default Re: *** Canadian Experience Class update ***

I'm sorry but all you base your comments on is your own experience and some other anecdotal sources. I'm in this business for 17 years now and deal with dozens of clients each year who graduate in Canada - none of them has such extreme problems you report.

Of course if you go to some huge company that needs to invest in you then they may not be interested in doing it for temporary worker - so, you must compromise here and put your ambitions aside and get job where you can in order to get work permit. Not every qualified Canadian can get a dream job at Procter & Gamble my friend. You may also get part time job while studying as work permits for off-campus work are available to many, if not most, of international students:

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/study/work-offcampus.asp

You can start par time work during study and if employer is happy with your work you will have no problem getting a job offer for full time. And yes - job offer doesn't need to be longer than half a page, 1 or 2 paragraphs is enough.

Job opportunities? It is not up to the government and not up to CIC. It is all employer's right to decide who they want to hire. Job market is still competitive, regardless shortages of qualified workers in many skills - it is up to you to sell yourself the best, government can't help you. Government already gave you the opportunity - you can get work permit. Now it is up to you to find the job.

Also remember that many international students want Canadian education and experience to use it as the best way to get later high paid, prominent jobs in their home countries (many Chinese students do it for example) and there is absolutely nothing wrong with doing it. So, you need to look at your problem from employer's perspective. Employer who invests a lot of money in recruiting seminars has also invested tens to hundreds of thousands of $$$ into creating job requiring a degree and is not only looking for best and brightest - employer is also looking for long term return on investment, it means employer wants permanent workers.

Other, less prominent employers, who can only afford to place adds in newspapers or online and who's cost of creating a job runs into few thousands of $$$ will be less reluctant to hire temporary workers.

Last edited by Andrew Miller; Jan 11th 2008 at 3:12 pm.
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Old Jan 11th 2008, 2:28 pm
  #43  
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Default Re: *** Canadian Experience Class update ***

Hi everyone, I have a question regarding the length of the employment required under the CEC category, when you said 12 months of employment, does it have to be continuous like that under the skilled worker category? Thanks in advance!


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Old Jan 11th 2008, 2:37 pm
  #44  
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Default Re: *** Canadian Experience Class update ***

This is exactly what Discussion paper says about international students:

for recent Canadian graduates - must have completed at least 2 years of post-secondary study program at the institution qualifying for post-graduate work permit and at least 12 months of work experience in Canada acquired after graduation (but within 2 years prior to CEC application) and exclusively in Skills Level 0, A or B.

It doesn't say anything about experience being continuous. We need to wait for final rules though.
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Old Jan 12th 2008, 8:56 am
  #45  
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Default Re: *** Canadian Experience Class update ***

Originally Posted by Andrew Miller
This is exactly what Discussion paper says about international students:

for recent Canadian graduates - must have completed at least 2 years of post-secondary study program at the institution qualifying for post-graduate work permit and at least 12 months of work experience in Canada acquired after graduation (but within 2 years prior to CEC application) and exclusively in Skills Level 0, A or B.

It doesn't say anything about experience being continuous. We need to wait for final rules though.
how can anyone acquire 2 years of work experience after graduation, if post-grad work permits for the most part are for 1 year (in Tdot, Vanc, Montreal)?

And I agree with Ethel. For example, Business and Finance positions O A B are out of reach for recent international grads. Employers invest considerable amount of resources and time to train graduates to become supervisors/managers/clerks etc. They will not invest knowing that after 1 year their application for LMO might get refused. So, they just don't bother. The same was with my job hunt after university. Recently, at least 3 of my friends left Canada for good after working in Toronto for a year at major banks. All our LMOs were rejected.

What should be done, is to issue permits for those who get jobs after graduation and make it less of a pain in the ass (maybe LMO exempt for a number of years?) to renew them until they land. After all, we've spent anywhere between 50-100K for our degrees in Canada.
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