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Solar Power
Seems more people in our village are switching to solar power. A neighbour just had it installed. Local friends applied via a grant process but I'm still unsure if one does exist. Relatives are going down this path too. I do wonder if they really need to switch to solar power. Not everybody can afford solar power so there's going to be millions of people struggling to pay exorbitant electricity costs on top of gas, wood and other fuels.
Of the three above only one has external insulation (20cm) and triple glazed windows. Mind, they do need to replace their old gas boiler, two immersion heaters and other white goods. It does seem pointless switching if you don't go the whole way to make efficient use of solar power and update other hot water or heating appliances. Hopefully, governments around the world get a grip on things to stabilise energy costs. |
Re: Solar Power
I have been thinking about solar recently. I would get a completely off grid solar system because if it is grid tied when the grid goes down you lose your power along with your neighbours. If you do an off gtid solar system get the Lithium batteries if you can afford them because they require less maintenance required with them.
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Re: Solar Power
Originally Posted by Jack_Russells4ever
(Post 13133655)
I have been thinking about solar recently. I would get a completely off grid solar system because if it is grid tied when the grid goes down you lose your power along with your neighbours. If you do an off gtid solar system get the Lithium batteries if you can afford them because they require less maintenance required with them.
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Re: Solar Power
Originally Posted by FenTiger
(Post 13133657)
That's an interesting point about losing power when the grid goes down. I'm going to ask this question to friends and family who are having solar power installed. They probably don't realise. They haven't mentioned batteries. I can see our neighbours solar power is tied to the grid! Is there not an option to switch to lithium batteries?
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Re: Solar Power
It just crossed my mind if our friends solar power system has lithium batteries where will they be stored? I can't see any safe place for them but family members can be safely stored in garage.
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Re: Solar Power
Originally Posted by FenTiger
(Post 13133661)
It just crossed my mind if our friends solar power system has lithium batteries where will they be stored? I can't see any safe place for them but family members can be safely stored in garage.
Many people with an offgrid solar system make a small shed to house the battery bank, the inverters and other equipment from the solar system. I would not want them in my house or under it in a basement because of offgasing and being a potential fire hazzard. |
Re: Solar Power
Originally Posted by Jack_Russells4ever
(Post 13133666)
Many people with an offgrid solar system make a small shed to house the battery bank, the inverters and other equipment from the solar system. I would not want them in my house or under it in a basement because of offgasing and being a potential fire hazzard.
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Re: Solar Power
I haven't thought too much about solar yet because first we'd need to better insulate our house and think what to do under the roof first - can we use the extra space?
But I know from my sister that in Germany eg if you have solar power and a connection to the grid you can sell the extra power at a good price. Maybe this feature will be available here too, some day? |
Re: Solar Power
Originally Posted by wolfi
(Post 13133674)
I haven't thought too much about solar yet because first we'd need to better insulate our house and think what to do under the roof first - can we use the extra space?
But I know from my sister that in Germany eg if you have solar power and a connection to the grid you can sell the extra power at a good price. Maybe this feature will be available here too, some day? We have space in the roof. I think we could get two large bedrooms up there, probably an ensuite each or both sharing but I honestly wouldn't want to go up the steep stairs every day except when guests are occupying the downstairs WC or bathroom far too long. One side already has a window looking east but it's pretty low so ideally not suited to children. Other side zilch! Still have to insulate that space too if converted to living space. Think we'll leave that for whoever gets our house after we've dropped dead! |
Re: Solar Power
Originally Posted by Jack_Russells4ever
(Post 13133655)
I have been thinking about solar recently. I would get a completely off grid solar system because if it is grid tied when the grid goes down you lose your power along with your neighbours. If you do an off gtid solar system get the Lithium batteries if you can afford them because they require less maintenance required with them.
Originally Posted by FenTiger
(Post 13133657)
That's an interesting point about losing power when the grid goes down. I'm going to ask this question to friends and family who are having solar power installed. They probably don't realise. They haven't mentioned batteries. I can see our neighbours solar power is tied to the grid! Is there not an option to switch to lithium batteries?
Originally Posted by Jack_Russells4ever
(Post 13133659)
It is my understanding that off grid cpable systems are not allowed or at least they were not when I inquired back in 2018.
Originally Posted by Jack_Russells4ever
(Post 13133666)
Many people with an offgrid solar system make a small shed to house the battery bank, the inverters and other equipment from the solar system. I would not want them in my house or under it in a basement because of offgasing and being a potential fire hazzard.
If you want to know how much power you can expect from your solar panels in your location and roof orientation look here https://re.jrc.ec.europa.eu/pvg_tools/en/ It is an EU produced tool. Zoom in on the map to your house, enter the size of system you intend to install and the slope of your roof and 'visualize results'. When you have done that you can adjust the 'azimuth' using the compass rose to see the angle (south is zero) The graph obtained gives expected panel output by month. (winter is typically 1/3 of the summer output) If you are thinking of getting solar then don't delay because at the moment you can get annual reconciliation which means that summer solar output can balance against lower winter output. The plan is that next year this will change to monthly reconciliation which means that summer over production won't be able to support winter under production and this change will extend the pay-back time of solar and put up your winter electricity bill. Contracts started now will stay on annual reconciliation. (unless you get the current government grant which allows the electricity co. to vary the contract at their discretion) Oh and you are only allowed 2.5kWp on single phase. To get more than this you will need a 3 phase supply (most houses need 3 -4 kWp to supply the annual power usage or more if the hot water is electric). |
Re: Solar Power
Originally Posted by Peter_in_Hungary
(Post 13133677)
Going off grid is expensive and when you consider the number of times you get a power outage IMO it is not worth the investment
Off grid systems are allowed, what is not allowed is hybrid systems that go off grid in the event of a power cut. The reason is that if a power cut happens it would be possible for your solar system to still be connected to the grid which would be dangerous to any electrician working on the grid. Yes you can build in an auto disconnect (from the grid) system but these are not fail safe so not allowed. Also this would add complexity (= expense) which also increases maintenance and the likelihood of a fault. And as per my comment above how much do you spend to avoid the occasional outage. Most off grid systems today use lithium batteries which don't off gas but are expensive (1,000,000 huf or more). The problem is running something like a washing machine or dish washer which has a high current demand in the water heater, this requires a high capacity battery and you also need to have a battery big enough to cover the demand in the winter when you could (will) get several days of cloud cover with minimum charging capability from the solar panels. If you want to know how much power you can expect from your solar panels in your location and roof orientation look here https://re.jrc.ec.europa.eu/pvg_tools/en/ It is an EU produced tool. Zoom in on the map to your house, enter the size of system you intend to install and the slope of your roof and 'visualize results'. When you have done that you can adjust the 'azimuth' using the compass rose to see the angle (south is zero) The graph obtained gives expected panel output by month. (winter is typically 1/3 of the summer output) If you are thinking of getting solar then don't delay because at the moment you can get annual reconciliation which means that summer solar output can balance against lower winter output. The plan is that next year this will change to monthly reconciliation which means that summer over production won't be able to support winter under production and this change will extend the pay-back time of solar and put up your winter electricity bill. Contracts started now will stay on annual reconciliation. (unless you get the current government grant which allows the electricity co. to vary the contract at their discretion) Oh and you are only allowed 2.5kWp on single phase. To get more than this you will need a 3 phase supply (most houses need 3 -4 kWp to supply the annual power usage or more if the hot water is electric). Think I'll hang back until there's something better and more cost effective. |
Re: Solar Power
https://re.jrc.ec.europa.eu/pvg_tools/en/ ... posted by Peter_in_Hungary is quite technical. I'll have to look at that another day after I've done some homework.
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Re: Solar Power
Originally Posted by FenTiger
(Post 13133684)
Reading all the above I am wondering if all those having it installed or already have are fully aware of the limitations, especially due to cloud cover. October onwards when the sun's gone into hibernation isn't going to produce much solar power. The investment.... is it going to be worth it.
Think I'll hang back until there's something better and more cost effective. The prediction for my house for a 4kWp system gives 4524 kWh per year with expected 556 kWh in July and 153 kWh in December. Which is why it would be important to get annual reconciliation now rather than monthly next year. My roof faces SW. If my roof faced S then I would get 4786kWh and for a SE facing roof then 4462 kWh. So the difference in roof orientation is about 1 months electricity over the year i.e. more panels would be needed.
Originally Posted by FenTiger
(Post 13133685)
https://re.jrc.ec.europa.eu/pvg_tools/en/ ... posted by Peter_in_Hungary is quite technical. I'll have to look at that another day after I've done some homework.
At this point you can see the compass rose next to the graph and use the cursor to see the azimuth angle number for the direction of your roof, enter this in the azimuth box and 'visualize results' again kWp is the term use for the power of your panels e,g, 4 kWp system produces a peak power of 4 kW. ( kWp = kiloWatt peak) |
Re: Solar Power
Originally Posted by Peter_in_Hungary
(Post 13133693)
They should have been told what to expect by the company installing the system. One thing that is not often mentioned is that shadowing the panels can have a big effect. E.g. If one panel is shadowed by a tree or chimney pot then the whole set of panels output is reduced by that one panel getting shade so the whole output is reduced to the level of the lowest panel.
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Re: Solar Power
Originally Posted by Peter_in_Hungary
(Post 13133677)
Going off grid is expensive and when you consider the number of times you get a power outage IMO it is not worth the investment
Off grid systems are allowed, what is not allowed is hybrid systems that go off grid in the event of a power cut. The reason is that if a power cut happens it would be possible for your solar system to still be connected to the grid which would be dangerous to any electrician working on the grid. Yes you can build in an auto disconnect (from the grid) system but these are not fail safe so not allowed. Also this would add complexity (= expense) which also increases maintenance and the likelihood of a fault. And as per my comment above how much do you spend to avoid the occasional outage. Most off grid systems today use lithium batteries which don't off gas but are expensive (1,000,000 huf or more). The problem is running something like a washing machine or dish washer which has a high current demand in the water heater, this requires a high capacity battery and you also need to have a battery big enough to cover the demand in the winter when you could (will) get several days of cloud cover with minimum charging capability from the solar panels. If you want to know how much power you can expect from your solar panels in your location and roof orientation look here https://re.jrc.ec.europa.eu/pvg_tools/en/ It is an EU produced tool. Zoom in on the map to your house, enter the size of system you intend to install and the slope of your roof and 'visualize results'. When you have done that you can adjust the 'azimuth' using the compass rose to see the angle (south is zero) The graph obtained gives expected panel output by month. (winter is typically 1/3 of the summer output) If you are thinking of getting solar then don't delay because at the moment you can get annual reconciliation which means that summer solar output can balance against lower winter output. The plan is that next year this will change to monthly reconciliation which means that summer over production won't be able to support winter under production and this change will extend the pay-back time of solar and put up your winter electricity bill. Contracts started now will stay on annual reconciliation. (unless you get the current government grant which allows the electricity co. to vary the contract at their discretion) Oh and you are only allowed 2.5kWp on single phase. To get more than this you will need a 3 phase supply (most houses need 3 -4 kWp to supply the annual power usage or more if the hot water is electric). Peter, you make good points but my concern is more about the volatile prices that could visit us here in Hungary in the future. In my village usually once a year EON schedules (2) days of scheduled power shutdowns to repair and upgrade the power lines which means about 8 hours per day of no power and ocassionally during a bad thunder storm the power has been off a few times for 2 or 3 hours due to a fallen tree branch etc. So, by itself power cuts would not justify the outlay for solar. I think if prices skyrocket the investment in an offgrid solar system would be worth considering. I have 3 phase power already and would install a 3 phase offgrid system were I to go down that route. True the payback time for the equipment and batteries would probably be a long time. But given the state of things in our current world it would be worth it to me if prices for power escalate. About transfer switches and on/off grid system capability ALL manual and automatic transfer switches break not only the phase conductors but also the neutral leg so there will be no system backfeeding possible if the installer hooks up the transfer switch gear box properly. In every instance I am aware of outside of Hungary the power provider will not re-install the meter until they come and verify the proper wiring inside the meter and transfer switch box. The automated transfer switch boxes have built in failsafe sensors that shutdown all current in the event of any issue with incoming and outgoing power and the neutral leg. IMHO EON does not want to allow them because it cuts into their power sales. Again just my opinion. |
Re: Solar Power
Originally Posted by Jack_Russells4ever
(Post 13133696)
In my village usually once a year EON schedules (2) days of scheduled power shutdowns to repair and upgrade the power lines which means about 8 hours per day of no power and ocassionally during a bad thunder storm the power has been off a few times for 2 or 3 hours due to a fallen tree branch etc. So, by itself power cuts would not justify the outlay for solar.
I think if prices skyrocket the investment in an offgrid solar system would be worth considering. I have 3 phase power already and would install a 3 phase offgrid system were I to go down that route. True the payback time for the equipment and batteries would probably be a long time. But given the state of things in our current world it would be worth it to me if prices for power escalate. Of course if EON changed their business model, tore up the existing contracts and demanded everyone did monthly reconciliation then the figures for off grid might change. But even then IMO over sizing the panels and limiting the output to the grid to get more power in the winter / spring / autumn (for me) would make more sense than gong off grid and buying batteries. As far as I can see the pay back time for batteries will be longer than the expected life of the batteries. One advantage of being grid tied is if there is a fault with the PV system you still have grid power to fall back on. Off grid means any fault you are on your own. This can be a problem - I have no mains water connection, if water stops coming out of the tap I can't just phone the water co. I have to get what ever is wrong fixed myself which means I get the tool box out because I can't wait days for some sort of trades person to turn up who doesn't know the system anyway. And yes I keep a selection of spares on the shelf to cover off likely failures. I am just about to install PV and my inverter will be 3 phase 10kva and I have been told that I must install at least 8 panels but I will need more than that to cover my current needs. I plan to install enough panels to cover my annual usage based on the annual panel output calculated by PVGIS and I will be reconciling annually so my annual electric bill should be just about zero plus the standing charge. That's the plan anyway......... |
Re: Solar Power
Peter, once again thanks for your comments. Much appreciated..
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Re: Solar Power
I have read this thread with interest but there's no mention of costs involved.
I am totally ignorant when it comes to inverters and how the whole system works. Obviously, there are many factors involved in the cost of a solar set up but a ball park figure for starting out would be helpful. Also, what about maintenance? Does it need an annual check up, clean etc? Thank you |
Re: Solar Power
Paul, there are so many variables in solar equipment and the needs asociated with each location it is difficult to even guess as to the cost. As from the previous comments on the thread their are grid tied and off grid systems, there are where allowed also on grid/off grid capable systems.
If you go with a grid tied system you will not need any batteries. You will just need the solar panels, the rack to hold the panels either on your house or ground mount type depending on your situation and the power inverter plus associated cabling and electrical components to connect a system to the grid. If you do a total off grid system you need the solar panels and rack to mount them, you will need the inverter and batteries. Then you must decide how much storage capability you need for your requirements and what your budget will allow, there are traditional lead acid batteries, gel cel batteries and Lithium batteries. Some users may even add a LPG capable generator or diesel model to charge the batteries in the event they are not getting enough charge from the sun. Maintenance would be cleaning the solar panels to keep them working at top capability plus maintaining the system batteries if an off grid system plus keeping an eye on the electrical connections of the system. Bear in mind of your panels are roof mounted someone has to climb on the roof to clean them or repair them in the event of trouble. Ground mounted systems are much easier for a DIYer to take care of. If you were allowed to grid tie a system that can also run when the grid goes down you will also need a transfer switch set up. |
Re: Solar Power
Originally Posted by PaulinEger
(Post 13133863)
I have read this thread with interest but there's no mention of costs involved.
I am totally ignorant when it comes to inverters and how the whole system works. Obviously, there are many factors involved in the cost of a solar set up but a ball park figure for starting out would be helpful. Also, what about maintenance? Does it need an annual check up, clean etc? Thank you A quick dip into Google showed a 3 kWp system for between 1.2 and 1.7 Mft. plus some EON work which depending upon your current consumer unit could be around 250,000 ft. Maintenance is low - almost fit and forget. If the panels get very dusty then a hose down will help but usually people just let the rain do it. Most panels come with a 25 year guarantee which guarantees 80% of rated output after 25 years. Inverters have a shorter guarantee (about 10 years I think) As said above a single phase supply is now limited to 2.5 kWp which I would suggest that 2,000,000 ft. should see it done but there is a bucket full of variables that could make a mess of that price. A couple of years ago the payback time of a grid tied solar panel set up was estimated to be between 8 - 11 years but now that is probably (a bit) out of date. |
Re: Solar Power
Thank you both for your replies. They pretty much answer my initial questions.
I was always concerned whether it would be worth it. If we ever go down the route of solar, it will probably be grid tied, although I do I've the idea of being completely independent and not relying on outside influences. |
Re: Solar Power
Just installed an off grid system which has 5 panels 1.2kw with lifepo4 battery bank total cost £2200, if you work out based on current prices then it doesn't make financial sense, it does allow 3 days back up power for critical items and to keep below average energy usage cap. if thinking of batteries they can not be charged below 0 degrees so a shed is not good a cob outbuilding is a good choice.
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Re: Solar Power
Interesting news from the government yesterday. The rules for home solar systems are changing so that no new systems that sell back to the grid (feed in) will be allowed. Existing systems will continue as is and anyone who is in the middle of installation (and has approval) will be allowed to complete. But no new approvals will be allowed.
Off grid system will still be allowed. |
Re: Solar Power
Originally Posted by PaulinEger
(Post 13134011)
Thank you both for your replies. They pretty much answer my initial questions.
I was always concerned whether it would be worth it. If we ever go down the route of solar, it will probably be grid tied, although I do I've the idea of being completely independent and not relying on outside influences. |
Re: Solar Power
Originally Posted by ecurb
(Post 13147690)
Interesting news from the government yesterday. The rules for home solar systems are changing so that no new systems that sell back to the grid (feed in) will be allowed. Existing systems will continue as is and anyone who is in the middle of installation (and has approval) will be allowed to complete. But no new approvals will be allowed.
Off grid system will still be allowed. However when you ask for more power - beyond 32A you are charged 5000 Fts / A to support the additional system loads. Question - what has happened to all these 5000 fts that have been paid - (several of which were mine !!) that were supposed to go towards maintaining the system load increases. We just managed to sneak in. We have a 6.8 kWp system (18 panels) that came on line last week. |
Re: Solar Power
I'm following this thread with interest. Brother-in-law planning install solar power. Sister-in-law has explained their reasons but hey, they need to replace all electrical appliances because they are so old, they even took mother-in-law very old deep freezer. No way would they benefit from solar power unless they replaced all electrical appliances.
On top their windows need replacing! Doesn't make sense, very adhoc. |
Re: Solar Power
Originally Posted by FenTiger
(Post 13147703)
I'm following this thread with interest. Brother-in-law planning install solar power. Sister-in-law has explained their reasons but hey, they need to replace all electrical appliances because they are so old, they even took mother-in-law very old deep freezer. No way would they benefit from solar power unless they replaced all electrical appliances.
On top their windows need replacing! Doesn't make sense, very adhoc. For the windows, if they are on gas central heating and below the cut-off for the cheap gas then IMO theres not much urgency (other than comfort) in changing the windows. If they are above the gas cut-off price then that a different matter, but there is more to do than windows I suspect e.g. loft insulation. |
Re: Solar Power
Originally Posted by Peter_in_Hungary
(Post 13147791)
IMO they would benefit from solar power but they would also benefit from replacing old appliances. They should go around with a plug-in consumption meter to see how much each appliance is using and then do the sums about replacement. Then do the big wins first.
For the windows, if they are on gas central heating and below the cut-off for the cheap gas then IMO theres not much urgency (other than comfort) in changing the windows. If they are above the gas cut-off price then that a different matter, but there is more to do than windows I suspect e.g. loft insulation. I'm not sure how thick our exterior insulation is. Might be 10cm but the builders said it's only 2cm! Sister-in-law house is one of those which uses the loft area as the upper floor with three bedrooms, bathroom and toilet. |
Re: Solar Power
This time of the year the orientation of windows and surrounding trees, building etc can make a big difference to the internal temperature of a house. So maybe you are lucky and you are getting good solar gain as well as having better windows, insulation and air tightness.
One of our houses has a wall of south facing windows, it is an older house with no real insulation, yet the bedroom is still maintaining 20c overnight (with no heating), and during a sunny day the temperature of the room with the windows can be 30c, very pleasent if it is only 16c outside. |
Re: Solar Power
Originally Posted by ecurb
(Post 13147914)
This time of the year the orientation of windows and surrounding trees, building etc can make a big difference to the internal temperature of a house. So maybe you are lucky and you are getting good solar gain as well as having better windows, insulation and air tightness.
One of our houses has a wall of south facing windows, it is an older house with no real insulation, yet the bedroom is still maintaining 20c overnight (with no heating), and during a sunny day the temperature of the room with the windows can be 30c, very pleasent if it is only 16c outside. Our CH programmer is wireless and can be moved around. Currently all rooms around 21C and CH not on. Our bedrooms are usually around 20C overnight but think once it gets colder the temperature will drop below 20C and CH kick in unless we set the CH programmer at a lower temperature. Good point we'd get good solar gain if we installed solar panels. Will see how sister-in-law and friends get on with their installation. https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/british...09970009e9.jpg |
Re: Solar Power
If you have thermostatic radiator valves (which you should have) then the room in which you use the wireless CH programmer should have the radiator valve turned up to max.
South and west facing windows get the most solar gain I would expect your external insulation to be 10 cm on the walls and 2 cm on the window returns. This has been the standard for several years now. |
Re: Solar Power
Originally Posted by Peter_in_Hungary
(Post 13147921)
If you have thermostatic radiator valves (which you should have) then the room in which you use the wireless CH programmer should have the radiator valve turned up to max.
South and west facing windows get the most solar gain I would expect your external insulation to be 10 cm on the walls and 2 cm on the window returns. This has been the standard for several years now. https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/british...8936bf36b7.jpg |
Re: Solar Power
My house faces south with two windows facing east and the bathroom and toilet windows, both very small, facing north. As the house is buit of adobe the outside walls are 18 inches thick which keeps the house warm in winter and cool in summer. Despite having two dogs who go in and out of the house like yo-yos in winter the inside temperature rarely drops below 19C. The roof space is fully insulated as are all the ceilings in the house which have been tongued and grooved. I've also just had the original windows refurbished and refitted and notice how much warmer the house now is.
I have a Baxi Combi boiler central heating which also provides hot water plus wood burning stoves in every room. Unless it's really really cold I only ever use the one in the living room which normally is lit around 4pm or if it's bitterly cold outside and I plan to work in there, just after lunch. |
Re: Solar Power
Originally Posted by FenTiger
(Post 13147925)
To be honest I have been wondering why we don't have thermostatic radiator valves. We do have automatic air release valves as recommended by our plumber.
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Re: Solar Power
Originally Posted by Peter_in_Hungary
(Post 13147972)
You don't normally have more than 1 or 2 automatic air release valves on a CH system and these are usually on the high points of the pipe work. However it is not either thermostat valve or air valve because the thermostat valve goes (normally) on the flow and the air valve will fit at the top of the rad where there is no pipework.
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Re: Solar Power
Originally Posted by FenTiger
(Post 13148164)
We have eight radiators, 5 with automatic air release, so that's 3-4 too many!
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Re: Solar Power
Originally Posted by Peter_in_Hungary
(Post 13148210)
Ordinarily I would say yes however it depends on the pipe layout, if it was installed properly then yes tee many - bad workmanship might need more.
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Re: Solar Power
Originally Posted by FenTiger
(Post 13148276)
:( I'll have a chat with one of my local friends. He's not a plumber by trade but can do alot of DIY stuff.
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