Hungarian Roma

Old Jan 22nd 2011, 4:49 pm
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Default Hungarian Roma

Recently, the Roma community in Europe has received a great deal of media attention, in particular, the removal of Romanian Roma from France.
The Roma have a long and complex history, as such, I won’t try to discuss it here; suffice to say they initially came from India and have been discriminated against and stereotyped across Europe. Hungary has a large Roma community, I believe that rather than putting on rose coloured spectacles and pretending they don’t exist or glossing over the issue and claiming there are no associated problems, it is better to be aware of the situation and hopefully future decisions you make regards Hungary will be informed ones.

Even before coming to Hungary, I had an interest in Roma culture and history. My daughter has dedicated part of her photography degree to social documentary involving Roma and we work with and help Roma in our local area. I am by no means an expert but hopefully what I have learnt will prove useful to some of you.

To say that all villages in which Roma live are rife with crime and antisocial behaviour is akin to saying all council estates in the UK are the same or all unemployed people are criminals. One of the first Hungarian phrases I learnt was “Nem minden Roma rossz” – “not all Roma are bad” and I stand by this statement.

From Wednesday 26th of January, the BBC Worldservice will be airing an interesting documentary on Hungarian Roma in the East of the country, you can listen here. The areas to the East and North East of Hungary have high populations of Roma.

So what are the Roma people like? We find the Roma a very colourful people, loud, extrovert and at times over bearing. At their best, they are hard working, honest, loyal and helpful - at their worst – dishonest, ungrateful and anti social, so much like the rest of society. Sometimes they can try the patience of a saint but understanding the difficulties they face due to continuing discrimination, helps you understand why they can, at times, be so forceful. Also, it doesn’t help when “Westerners” give them money, cigarettes, sweets etc as this encourages the mentality that if they can get something for nothing by “pestering” people, why shouldn’t they. This is probably the worst thing you will experience should you buy in a village with Roma residents but unless you stand your ground from the beginning, you will never get any peace. We know of Brits who keep their gates locked 24/7 as otherwise, they would have a constant stream of Roma asking for money, cigarettes etc. Whereas, we have yet to fit a gate and are never bothered except when someone genuinely needs help. It has taken time but we have built up trust and respect with the few Roma families in our village; to the extent that we once had to phone a Roma neighbour, late at night, to borrow an asthma inhaler which they delivered to our door within minutes and they would not accept anything in return. We treat them as we treat the Hungarians and they respect this.

However, there are a number of Roma who do cause problems, it is all too easy to say this is because they are Roma but this is stereotypical and simply not the case. Naturally, I can only comment on my personal experiences and what I have concluded is that the more serious problems are found in villages where social and economic problems exist and alcohol abuse is rife. These tend to be in poorer counties (obviously discounting Budapest as it is a different issue entirely) with lower employment prospects for both Roma and Hungarians (Roma discrimination is endemic in Hungary and even unskilled jobs are difficult for Roma to find – how many Roma have you seen working in Tesco, McDonalds etc?). No jobs, no money, cheap alcohol, a recipe for problems no matter where in the world you live! Of course, in villages where these problems exist, property is cheap and estate agents will sell these properties to foreigners who never ask what the neighbourhood is like, why therefore should the estate agent or seller reveal that the village has problems. This is the reality, crime exists in Hungary as in every other country, albeit far less than the UK and is committed by both Hungarians and Roma. What you have to ensure is that you are not buying in a village or town that has existing social problems and you can not rely on an estate agent to do that for you, you must research and ask questions both online and locally. Don’t be pressurised into making a decision on a 3 day viewing trip, return home, research the village or town and then make your decision.

A couple of telling comments were made by friends recently, firstly by a Brit who stated that the Roma in Zala are different to the Roma in Somogy and another by a Roma friend of ours who, whilst working in a Somogy village, stated that it was a “bad” village, the people had no jobs and drank too much. This friend lives in a village in Zala which has possibly the highest number of Roma in Zala but far fewer social problems than the village in which he was working. This reiterates the fact that it is not simply that a village has Roma residents; there are many other factors involved. For example; the lakeside villages of Somogy are in general problem free, even inland, there are some lovely quiet villages but also some of the roughest villages we have visited in Hungary. Again, research is the key.

As a starting point, I will give a rough estimate of the number of Roma in the counties that I am familiar with. In counties with tourist attractions such as spa resorts and lakeside access, you tend to find few, if any, Roma in the actual resorts or lakeside villages as they are too expensive. Instead, you will generally find higher numbers of Roma in the closest affordable villages with the rest scattered throughout the county.

Borsod-Abaúj-Zemplén county 115,000
Baranya county 26,000
Somogy county 26,000
Zala county 11,000
Vas county 6,000


So to conclude, the Roma are not a heinous race of criminals and vagabonds, they are human beings, like the rest of us, unlike the rest of us, they have a history of being discriminated against throughout Europe and have suffered centuries of human rights abuse. Consequently, many live in poverty and struggle to find a way out of their impoverished lifestyle; subsequently, in some areas, alcohol and other abuses are prevalent. However, there are many villages in which Roma are fully integrated and add to the colour of the village with both their music and culture. Just as agents in the UK don’t have signs up in Brixton, Moss-side or Easterhouse warning, “rough area -foreigners don’t buy here”, neither do the agents in Hungary. Caveat emptor!

Last edited by Sue; Aug 14th 2011 at 4:04 pm. Reason: Changed a sentence in paragraph 6 at request of OP
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Old Jan 25th 2011, 10:00 pm
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Default Re: Hungarian Roma

Just to add some perspective to my previous post, I thought I would include the "official" Romani population figures for several European countries. The actual figures are usually somewhat higher than these. In Hungary, the majority of Roma live in the East and North East of the country, in the West, most are to differing degrees integrated but as with every country, there are areas which are considered to be problematic. This is not solely down to the Roma as I explained in my previous post and I reiterate that crime in Hungary is very low compared with the UK and it is most definitely a safe country in which to live.

Spain : 650,000
France : 500,000
Bulgaria : 370,908
Italy : 332,000 (legal and illegal)
Hungary 215,000
Germany : 210,000
Greece : 200,000
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Old Jan 26th 2011, 6:45 am
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Default Re: Hungarian Roma

I think percentage of total population is more meaningful than overall numbers so I've used your figures to work it out:

Spain 1.4% Roma
France 0.8% Roma
Bulgaria 4.9% Roma
Italy 0.55% Roma
Hungary 2.1% Roma
Germany 0.25% Roma
Greece 1.8% Roma
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Old Jan 26th 2011, 7:42 am
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Thanks for taking the time to do that, must admit Spain and Greece surprised me. Also, the figures used in my first post are the "estimated" numbers so higher than the "official" numbers.
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Old Jan 31st 2011, 9:11 am
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While I agree with every word of the original message - I wonder why this is sticking to the top?
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Old Jan 31st 2011, 11:25 am
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Default Re: Hungarian Roma

Hi John, believe me I thought long and hard about having this made a "sticky". Concluding that not doing so was simply addressing the issue then sweeping it under the carpet.

The subject is controversial and the Roma may be considered a negative aspect of life in Hungary but surely it is better that people are aware of the situation.
For those who have been fortunate enough to buy in unaffected areas, this might not seem much of an issue. However, there are many Brits and I don't mean one or two, I mean "a lot", who have bought in villages known locally to have "issues", not all of Roma origin.
The reality of this is that they will probably struggle to sell their property, they live in a self imposed prison and some genuinely feel intimidated - even we felt intimidated in some villages. Worse still is that many paid up to twice the "actual" value of the property.

Imagine that you have sold up in the UK, spent all of your savings on your "dream home" only to discover that you are in a "rough neighbourhood" for want of a better expression. You can not return to the UK and have little hope of ever selling the property, unless you sell it onto another unsuspecting foreigner, as no Hungarian would pay the price asked for your newly renovated house in "that" village. If the post being a "sticky" helps prevent just one person making the same mistake, surely it has to be worth it.

I have lost count of the number of times I have heard, "we were naive", "I didn't even know what Roma were" and "I wish we had known that before we bought the house".
Hungary is a wonderful country, low crime rates, good climate, fairly inexpensive cost of living and all round a pretty "easy" place to live in. This thread is simply pointing out one of the negatives in the hope that people moving here are able to enjoy all that Hungary has to offer, instead of regretting their decision to buy here.

Last edited by Rural Hungary; Jan 31st 2011 at 11:36 am.
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Old Jan 31st 2011, 1:40 pm
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Default Re: Hungarian Roma

Well Not really a topic that interests me, I don't know anything about the Roma other than what I have heard about shootings of them etc etc, I have met a few very nice ones who usually deal in second hand stuff.

I live in a lovely area, with no Romas within miles (to my knowledge).

However, one day I was returning home from shopping and was behind a car going very slowly with 4 people in it, they went down past my house. When I was closing my gates they came back up the street and stopped outside my house and two young ladies got out and came to me babbling on in Hungarian, I told them Nem bezel Magyar and one came up very close to my face with a sexy kind of voice, and the other came up behind her asking to use my toilet, there were two men in the front of the car, all rough looking characters, anyway I closed my gates on them and they drove off. It was a little unerving.

I wouldn't want to live close to that sort of person who were quite obviously up to no good, eyeing up every ones gardens and houses.

It's like anywhere or any group though, not all are bad but I personally wouldn't want to buy a house in an area full of them and take that chance.

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Old Jan 31st 2011, 3:55 pm
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Exactly Anonimouse, personally I wouldn't buy in certain schemes in Glasgow yet parts of them look perfectly respectable places in which to live, however, coming from the area, I know better.

Foreigners buying in Hungary do not have that advantage and in most cases are at the mercy of the estate agents. They see "undeveloped" houses full of character and ripe for renovation, set in stunning countryside minutes from the lake. They are making the decision to buy a house, usually without a survey, having been in the country 2-3 days, at the forefront of their mind "is the house worth the money, structurally sound, can I trust the agent", the last thing on their mind is - what are the neighbours like.
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Old Feb 1st 2011, 1:56 pm
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Seems to me that people should always take a bit of time getting to know a village or town before they buy. How can you invest for the rest of your life without first doing a few checks.

I would encourage people to look at the outside of the Church. If it is well cared for it indicates a good village. Most villages are small enough to walk round in say an hour. See if they have a library of sorts, an internet point and a cared for sports pitch. The village council office is worth a look. Does it looked cared for?

You will pick up very quickly on the mix of incomes & attitudes. Check the gardens. I would also look in at the local pub. (Our village is not smart enough to have a restaurant) The pub might be simple but in a good village it will be clean & welcoming.

The 3 day trips being rushed from one property to another by a "helpful" agent are all very well, but no instant decisions should be made. It costs very little to stay for a week or so, to hire a car and revisit the areas the agent has shown. It is after all planning for the rest of your life.

If wealth differentials are too huge there are bound to be problems. It is not a race thing, it is common sense. Anyone who has spent time in North Africa will know that people with nothing tend to hassle those that they perceive as being well off. Not nice but not unexpected.

The Roma community is mixed. There is an area in Tapolca I know where very rich Roma people live. They are hard working, successful & their houses are huge & very well cared for. There are also Roma solicitors, doctors & other professionals.

If I were a buyer I would, as Rural suggests, invest time in checking on the character of an area.

If you pay a little more & move to a mixed income area not dominated by poverty - you will be fine.
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Old Feb 1st 2011, 2:12 pm
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Default Re: Hungarian Roma

John Gilbert;9144135]

If I were a buyer I would, as Rural suggests, invest time in checking on the character of an area.

If you pay a little more & move to a mixed income area not dominated by poverty - you will be fine

All Good points,

I think most Brits are blinded by the price, here hopefully you can afford to buy a little more upmarket so to speak. I think you do get what you pay for.

Saying that I have spoken, in a fashion, to a few and they seemed to be quite pleasant, it's possible they would make friendly neighbours and even the bad ones may go else where to do their dirty deeds.
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Old Feb 1st 2011, 2:27 pm
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Hi John, thanks for taking the time to post, I am currently composing a reply to your PM.
Sadly, as Anonimouse says, they are blinded by the price and proximity to the lake.
One buyer recently told me, "the village looked nice and quiet as we drove in and it was only 10 minutes from the lake plus the price was right".

However, one problem faced by foreigner buyers is that many villages can appear to be quite affluent yet hidden away is a "poorer quarter" and in many instances, it is from this quarter than problems stem. Then again, there are many villages that are by Western definition "poor" - generally villages in which agriculture is still the predominant occupation and they have no social problems at all.

There are many poor villages or villages with empty properties, due to younger generations leaving the village to find work in the towns, they may not have a library or a sports pitch nor a renovated mayors office and yet they are very good villages in which to buy.

It is difficult!

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Old Feb 1st 2011, 4:19 pm
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Seems to me people should just buy in a balanced community - just like in the UK. A rich ghetto is no good nor is a poor one. Balanced communities tend to be more interesting, happier & self policing.

In London, we would never say don't buy in a "black area" as they have special problems. We would say don't buy in a poor area unless you are willing to put up with the problems that may come with it.

The black community is mixed here with the full range of people & an expanding educated & successful middle class. Black people who have achieved things in life do not define themselves as merely black. While they are proud of their heritage & their black heritage is part of them, they talk of themselves as doctors, nurses, teacher, lawyers etc just as we all do. They happen also to be black.

Those that work with the troubled part of the Roma community in poorer parts of Hungary are unlikely to come across the richer successful Roma but there are many about. While a few may not celebrate their heritage, many do. Many also just behave normally & see themselves as lawyers, teachers & musicians who happen to be of Roma ethnicity. Just as me being white is not my dominant thought, nor is them being Gypsy theirs.

I reiterate, people should be very careful where they buy property abroard. I would look for a society were no group dominates and where there is a good mix of socio economic groups. All groups will contain bad apples but a mixed & balanced society is likely to be a pleasure to live in and largely self policing. This applys to the UK & to Hungary.
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Old Feb 1st 2011, 5:55 pm
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Default Re: Hungarian Roma

Originally Posted by John Gilbert

In London, we would never say don't buy in a "black area" as they have special problems. We would say don't buy in a poor area unless you are willing to put up with the problems that may come with it.
If people are unaware of the problems then how can they choose whether to put up with it or not. This is what the post hoped to achieve. Those who know me would not hesitate in agreeing that I am one of the least bigotted people they know, on numerous occassions I have argued on behalf of the Roma. However, I will also say that for many Brits, living in a predominentley Roma village would be difficult for them on many levels. That is not racist and nor is it PC but what it is, is the truth.

Originally Posted by John Gilbert
Those that work with the troubled part of the Roma community in poorer parts of Hungary are unlikely to come across the richer successful Roma but there are many about. While a few may not celebrate their heritage, many do. Many also just behave normally & see themselves as lawyers, teachers & musicians who happen to be of Roma ethnicity. Just as me being white is not my dominant thought, nor is them being Gypsy theirs.
Likewise, those whose experience is only of successful Roma are unlikley to be aware of the extent of the social problems in other areas. I would agree that the problems are more common in the "poorer" areas of Hungary, but stress that not all poor areas have social problems, there are a mixture of factors involved.

Originally Posted by John Gilbert
I reiterate, people should be very careful where they buy property abroard. I would look for a society were no group dominates and where there is a good mix of socio economic groups. All groups will contain bad apples but a mixed & balanced society is likely to be a pleasure to live in and largely self policing. This applys to the UK & to Hungary.
John, when you are next over, I will be more than happy to take you to several villages in which no group dominates 50% Hungarian and 50% Hungarian-ethnic minorities and let you judge for yourself. It is not the mix or balance that is important, it is the extent of integration within the community.
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Old Feb 1st 2011, 7:28 pm
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Rural, you are not in the least bit biggotted I am sure & I would very much like to meet up anyway when next over.

You are right of course that it is not only the mix that is important but the integration. People don't have to live in each others pockets but if they don't rub along together there are problems.

Can I recommend Lesenceistvand as a welcoming village community with a good mix of people of all types & sizes. It isn't an expensive village like Szigliget, but the people are warm & welcoming. I would welcome some English speakers to chat with in the kocsma!
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Old Feb 1st 2011, 8:01 pm
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Okay, it's a date To be honest, I have been meaning to drive out your way for over a year now. The pictures I have seen of the lake and mill in Tapolca make it look truly beautiful and is something I would like to see.

What day is the market on? We have one in Nagykanizsa but I wouldn't mind visiting another.

You can absolutely recommend your village, I have been out at Varvolgy several times but never to Lesenceistvand.

Our village is very mixed as well, traditional farming cottages alongside new build holiday homes and is set in stunning countryside. When I visit some villages which Brits have bought in and then come home to our village, I think why did they buy there? Of course, they only go where the estate agents take them.......
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