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Houses with Loam Walls

Houses with Loam Walls

Old Jul 1st 2011, 3:17 pm
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Default Houses with Loam Walls

I am interested in buying a house in Hungary, initially to use for extended holidays, but eventually to retire to. I am looking for a house within a 30 mile radius of Lake Balaton.

Many of the houses in my price range have walls made of loam, which I believe is mud, rendered outside and plastered inside.

I'm interested to know people's opinions on houses constructed with this method. For instance;

Do these walls offer good insulation?

Are these walls damp-proof, and do these houses suffer from damp?

Do these walls need lots of maintainence?

Does anyone have experience of these types of buildings?

Do they make a good long-term investment, or should I look for something with different construction, eg. Brick/stone?

Many thanks for any advice.
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Old Jul 1st 2011, 4:51 pm
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Default Re: Houses with Loam Walls

Hi to everyone on here. I only joined the forum today and have already found it a rich source of information and inspiration. I am looking to move to Hungary in the very near future so need all the advice and help a forum like this can give.
This is my first post on here.I decided to post on this newly started thread as i have had the same thoughts as "woodbine" with regards to properties constructed with loam walls.
I have done a bit of scratching round on the net about it and found that about a third of the worlds population live in loam constructed houses and that it is being looked at again as an eco friendly form of construction in the modern age.
I, like "woodbine", would be interested to here peoples views on this subject.
I am already grateful to the people on here who have placed so much useful information about relocating over to Hungary and are willing to give of there time to help others .
Kind regards, Gareth
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Old Jul 2nd 2011, 8:08 pm
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Default Re: Houses with Loam Walls

Hi both and welcome to the BE forums. I'm the concierge for the Hungarian section so just PM me or one of the mods should you need any help or have any questions.

Loam or adobe houses can have a lot of character, wooden beams, floors(usually rotten and in need of replacement) etc.
Many can be saved but just as many are only fit for demolishing. We have witnessed adobe houses standing one day and collapsing the next, sometimes the damage isn't apparent until the very last minute. The main issue is damp as once it penetrates the adobe and reaches a certain saturation, I can't remember off the top of my head but it is around 30%, the adobe is weakened to the point that it can no longer support the load of the roof and collapse is imminent. However, if damp has not been a major issue, many can be renovated, there will usually always be a certain amount of damp due to the lack of a DPM but if it has not been excessive, it can be remedied using a variety of techniques.
Regards insulation, these types of buildings are very efficient, we have a small adobe house which has been turned into a school room and it is extremely cool in the summer but keeps the heat in in the winter.
Maintenance is ongoing with an adobe house - that said, the same is true of any property! With an adobe property though, it should be maintained using materials similar to the original construction materials, no cement or polymer based paint as they do not allow the adobe to breath, we spent a summer chopping straw and adding it to mud and lime to make an adobe render! There are many builders here who cement render over adobe or use polystyrene and then render over the adobe. It initially looks good and only time will tell whether lasting damage has been done to the building.

To summarise, you have to ensure there is no serious damage to the adobe. Renovation costs will be more if you want it done correctly. They will be require more maintenance than a brick built property.
With brick built properties, within 30 minutes of the lake, selling from 1.8 million ft, an adobe property has to be more of a personal preference as they aren't usually that much cheaper.

Hope this helps
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Old Jul 4th 2011, 8:52 am
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Default Re: Houses with Loam Walls

Hi again.Thank you for posting a reply ref loam walls.Very interesting.I think its a case of not having any prior experience sows the seeds of doubt. If i looked at a loam wall, i wouldnt even know were to begin to assess its condition.At least with brick, you can just tap it , mutter something and give the impression of possessing some hidden eldritch knowledge.I think for me personally,i will try and stick with brick after reading a bit more , better the devil you know, or maybe i'm being a chicken.
I have been reading more of the posts on here and following some of the links.Its all useful information.I guess i am at the start of a journey many on here have completed. This site will prove to be a good sat nav methinks.
Regards, Gareth
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Old Jul 5th 2011, 2:36 pm
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Default Re: Houses with Loam Walls

We have bought such a house and it needs a lot of work on one side of the house... I would say that before buying such a property ask a local specialised builder to come with you for an opinion. It could be that the house is fine and does not need much work, or it could be as Rural said that the damp has already set in, in which case you could be in for an initial expense. In the long term, they can be very efficient. I can stand testament to the fact that they are cool in the summer, hopefully the reverse will be true for the winter. Another thing to consider is that some of the older properties were built before modern day facilities/electrics etc. Ampage can be low so that all modern day appliances on at once will not be possible. Sounds silly but check the ampage/fuse box....also where does the sewage go etc. We have recently had our house re plumbed - and I can assure you the plumber did not have the nicest job in the world trying to find existing pipes in VERY thick walls. We are on a very steep learning curve, and although I in no way regret buying our property and land - there are perhaps some key questions I would have asked before buying and will know for the future.
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Old Jul 5th 2011, 3:42 pm
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Default Re: Houses with Loam Walls

Hi Polgardi, sadly to say, we have friends who purchased an adobe house through the same agent as you, they had their property inspected by the agents "surveyor" and many of the problems (rotten beams & joists, eroded adobe at the bottom of one side of the house etc) were not pointed out to the buyer! Regrettably, we did not know them at the time of their purchase or I would have advised them to run a mile.
The issue comes with rectifying the problems. Many Hungarian builders will cut out the damaged adobe before building the walls up using modern building materials and whilst this works and is aesthetically pleasing in the short term, the long term effects can be seriously detrimental to the property. However, to rebuild walls using traditional materials can be time consuming and costly. However, some of the old properties (especially those with the architraves) are very pretty and if renovated well make beautiful homes, more so if the character and original features are maintained. I did plan on writing a guide for the forum on adobe versus brick houses but haven't yet had the time. Quite recently, the wall of an adobe house collapsed in the UK, there one day and gone the next whilst the tenants were living in the property... I think cement render had been used on the building and this might have partially been to blame.
Personally, I would say they are slightly better at keeping cool during the summer. On particularly hot days I do notice a slight difference between the school and the house though I was surprised at how well insulated our brick house is. Ours has very thick walls and 8cm of mud insulation in the attic and only on the hottest days do I find it slightly uncomfortable. Both houses I would say are about the same with regards to maintaining heat in the winter. The coldest houses I have found are those with damp - be they adobe or brick (and there are a lot of properties in Hungary with damp, due to various factors). If the property has a damp problem, once the freezing temperatures set in, the house can be expensive to heat.
Regards the electrics, the same is also true of brick built properties. One of our most frequent jobs is upgrading electrics as many are on 10 or 16 amps and everything is on a single circuit. We have seen some scary sights with renovated properties classed as being "rewired" when in actual fact all that has been done is the addition of new sockets and light switches, these have then been connected to the 50-100 year old wiring circuit.... Electrical fire waiting to happen!!!
LOL the sewage... When looking for property it's one of the first questions I ask - szennyvíz vagy pöcegödör - sewage or cesspit, not being used to the fact that many villages don't have mains sewage, it's not something Brits think about and if they see a toilet and bath in a property, they automatically assume it goes somewhere and they aren't thinking to a trench or hole in the bottom of their garden
Glad to here you are moving forward and managing to get things done, it will get better
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Old Jul 6th 2011, 8:34 am
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Default Re: Houses with Loam Walls

Hi Rural,

Yes things are moving along, as I say, I dont regret buying our house and land, but it is more work then we were counting on (hence more expense) and sadly to say we have been badly let down (and ripped off) by some unscrupulous 'friends' on some work done. However that has nothing to do with Hungary, or buying property here, but more our naivety at trusting people we should not have. I think you mentioned somewhere in another post about not accepting things here that you would not accept in the UK - i.e. get a survey, make sure sales agreement has correct price etc. You are absolutely right in what you say. It doesnt matter what part of the world you live in, there will always be some people who like to take advantage of another persons good nature.

We have some fab neighbours (Hungarian, Austrian, and a lady who is half Roma) who have been really kind and heplful and 'look out' for us. Also, we still love Hungary and all it has to offer. So if anyone else is reading this, and are taking a negative view based on a one off experience we have had - then please don't let it put you off. Not that it makes any difference but we were let down by English people - not the locals.
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Old Jul 6th 2011, 9:52 am
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Default Re: Houses with Loam Walls

Sorry to hear that Polgardi. Without mentioning names, it wouldn't happen to have been organised by the English representative of a certain agent?

Unfortunately, not speaking the language or having contacts in the country, many buyers are at the mercy of the agent and have no way of organising an independent survey or contracting builders except through the agent. Sadly, certain agents know and exploit this. That said, there are a few Brits we have come across who are just as bad, so you do have to be careful who you trust. We quickly discovered that - though ours wasn't to do with a house purchase or builders, more friends we helped out when they knew no one else here who then turned out not to be there for me when I needed some support.......... C'est la vie

Pleased to hear you have good neighbours and look forward to hearing how much you are enjoying Hungarian life once things have settled down for you
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Old Jul 6th 2011, 6:44 pm
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My brother in law bought a house in Bukkszek earlier this year at what he thought was a really good price. He's Hungarian but has lived in England since he was a few months old (now 54). His house has turned out to be an absolute money pit. He had some damp to contend with along with massively increasing the amperage. He's also recently had new doors and windows and had his roof completely replaced.
What started out as a 3.9 million forint house will have cost him at least that much again by the time he gets to use it properly.
His electricity upgrade was a huge shock as Emasz insisted on a new cable to the house, new post into the roof, new consumer unit etc etc etc.
For his roof alone he was quoted between 1.5m and 5m huf.
On top of this, we recently viewed a house in Sirok. The price was right, the location perfect but the house itself needs a LOT of work. The previous owner's nephew who's selling it didn't know where the waste water goes so I quickly found out...a small concrete pit at the bottom of the garden with an overflow into the local stream!. The electrics were only 10amps. When I said we'd need 48 he thought we were being ridiculous and 16 would be ample! The house is for sale for 4.2m huf and he reconned it would cost me about another 3 to get it how I wanted it. LOL. Currently there's no kitchen, bathroom, waste water (as such), needs rendering, wiring upgrading, roof insulating in order to use the huge loft space, redecorating, furnishing etc etc etc.
We took 2 local builders round and one quoted 800,000 huf for re-rendering, the other 100,000 huf. Sometimes I think they just come up with a figure off the top of their heads.
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Old Jul 7th 2011, 8:03 am
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Default Re: Houses with Loam Walls

Well, if something seems too good deal it usually is.... On the other hand, buying a property with ca 15k euro is ridiculously cheap, in most countries in western europe that would be cost of a few sqms ....

As a rule of thumb, i would expect costs to be ca 200k HUF /sqm of functioning property (=austrian/german/scandinavian quality which is a step above typical british or south european standard)
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Old Jul 7th 2011, 2:13 pm
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Default Re: Houses with Loam Walls

Hi all again. Its fascinating reading peoples experiences on here. I understand that if kept in good condition, loam walls are fine.I guess though i still would prefer stone/brick because they don't tend to collapse due to damp.
I have not been over to look at properties yet, but have spoken to a couple of agents ref viewing trips. Reading between the lines on some of the posts on here, that may not be the best way to go. I guess like all things, there's good and bad. Hard to know who is on that one, any recommendations ?

A few of the properties listed show houses that have been renovated, they look ok in the pics. I 'm ok with diy so wouldnt mind a place that needs a bit of work, don't want a wreck though.
Can anyone recommend or vouch for any agents they have had experiences with ? Or is that iffy on here ? Don't want to get caught big time, but anything is a risk i am aware.
Regards, Gareth
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Old Jul 7th 2011, 3:22 pm
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Default Re: Houses with Loam Walls

Originally Posted by PaulinEger
Sometimes I think they just come up with a figure off the top of their heads.
Many do! They later add on "extras" that hadn't been mentioned previously and we know of several cases were the payment was made in advance and the job not completed.....

Originally Posted by jebe_noyan
Can anyone recommend or vouch for any agents they have had experiences with ? Or is that iffy on here ? Don't want to get caught big time, but anything is a risk i am aware.
Personally speaking, I advise people that if they have £50,000+, to look in villages such as Balatonszentgyorgy, Zalazsanto, Rezi - to name but a few or lakeside villages to the North of the lake as some of these are more residential than those to the South. If however, you don't mind the village being pretty empty of residents out of season, there are some nice villages on the South shore.
If their budget is lower, I suggest looking to the west of the lake near the Croatian and Slovenian border (in the Zala hills) where there are several spa resorts, small lakes and the scenery is stunning. Prices here are lower and a habitable 2 bed house needing decorating, new kitchen and bathroom start around £20,000 and complete projects around £10,000 - renovation £7,000-12,000 for a 2 bed house depending on finish, compared to Western Europe, it doesn't get much cheaper!.
There are some bargains about but these tend to get snapped up quickly, for example,last week I was sent details on a 2 bed house in the spa resort of Bazakerettye, new roof, central heating, new bathroom and completely renovated - nearly half price at just under £17,000. If the same property was in a lakeside village, it would cost around £45,000.

Regards agents, there are many I would avoid and a few I would use - which depends on budget and where you are looking to buy. I would be equally as wary regards where I intended on buying. If it is around the Balaton then feel free to PM me and I will tell you which villages NOT to buy in......
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Old Jul 7th 2011, 4:36 pm
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Default Re: Houses with Loam Walls

hello jebe_noyan

Pm me and I will advise on an agent to be wary of
Thanks
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Old Aug 10th 2011, 6:52 am
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Default Advice on vernacular buildings- ie. adobe

I found out recently that the Skanzen Museum in Szentendre advise people on the care and rehabilitation of old buildings. Their rates seem very reasonable. http://www.skanzen.hu/index.php?fm=article&id=122
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Old Aug 10th 2011, 8:12 am
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Default Re: Houses with Loam Walls

Hi, thanks for that - interesting link.
There is a lot of information online - especially from the UK - on the maintenance and repair of adobe buildings.
The problem here is that certain agents are selling loam/adobe houses which are structurally unsound due to damp penetration. Once the moisture content reaches a certain level, the adobe loses it's strength and begins to erode. Should this happen at the bottom of the wall, the wall then has to be rebuilt or buttresses put in place to support the wall but unless a buyer has experience with adobe, it is easy for agents to assure them that the walls just need "a bit of rendering". By the time they realise the extent of the problem, it's not maintenance or minor repairs they are looking at but far more serious building work!

Sorry for the rant but I have seen some horrendous properties sold to British people who thought they were buying the dream of a quaint traditional Hungarian cottage only to end up with a complete nightmare. I now know why many buyers, in Bulgaria, wouldn't touch adobe houses with a barge pole!
If buying this type of property, it is so important to ensure it is dry and has not been patched with a cement based render at the bottom.

Last edited by Rural Hungary; Aug 10th 2011 at 9:42 am.
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