Stegy

First a very happy new year to all of you.

We are finally moving over permanently this summer and looking forward to our first full year in Hungary.
We have some outbuildings that we have done some superficial internal renovation work on over the last couple of years. We have the services of an architect as we were planning on taking down the animal pens section and building an extension and would have required planning permission for this. However due to the cost of this becoming ridiculous ( more than the cost of the whole property ) we have shelved this and just want to take down the animal pens and use the outbuildings for a workshop area, a book room, And a studio space for our hobbies of painting, music etc all non commercial. This will mean that we want to install gas heating and french windows on the gable end. (there is already gas and electricity but the gas would need to be extended from the supply to the main house).
The buildings were formerly used as summer kitchens living area and a stable. The architect tells us that we still need to apply for change of use to a 'self contained living area' as these buildings are designated as agricultural and are not directly connected to the main house. This entails extensive re roofing due to some asbestos and all round outside insulation costing approx 8,000 GBP in total before anything else.
Is it strictly necessary to do all this as we are not intending using it as living area only for daytime use to work on hobbies and store gardening equipment etc.
We realise we will need to have a gas plan submitted for the istallation of a boiler etc but does that in itself mean we have to go through the planning authorities ? (radiators and pipework were fitted just over two years ago by Rural Hungary's partner).

Any advice would be very welcome as obviously we want to keep costs down and have the feeling that the architect may be looking after his paycheck rather than our interests. Sorry about the length and detail of the question but this forum is the best place I know for finding out the real story.

Many thanks in advance.

I have include some jpegs of the outbuilding

Peter_in_Hungary

Non structural repairs don't need any permission (actually few Hungarians bother with permission for internal structural repairs either) So I would say don't change the use, just 'repair' to what you want. As you know installing gas requires planning but I think this is down to the contractor and the gas company, but worth checking. What sort of gas heating - wet rads or wall convectors? The gas regs are quite stiff now due to too many deaths from CO poisoning and if you change something gas then the whole building has to be brought up to the current gas standard. If the hobby room is occasional use perhaps a wood stove might be cheaper and easier. If you want gas CH in the main house as well as part of the upgrade then I would suggest getting a boiler big enough for the whole job and on the plan get the heating to the main house only (this also needs a plan) but make provision (not on he plan) to extend it to the rest later. i.e. keep the hobby room/stable part out of it until the gas CH is done and dusted. (unless the CH boiler is planned to be in the hobby room then that will be part of the gas plan.

It is easier if there is no internal connection between the house and the hobby room as if there is then this room becomes part of the 'air space' for the house and will need to be included in any gas plan for the house.

If the summer kitchen is where you want the hobby room and has the asbestos roof, first does the roof leak or are there any other problems with it, otherwise why change it. If you want to replace the asbestos with something else then it would depend on what you want to put up and what timbers you have (non-structural repairs again) If you want to replace the roof timbers to cope with heavier tiles and it is like for like i.e. no change to the roof line then an architect is not needed but you may need a structural engineer to verify the new timber sizing but you would have to check up on that.

From the picture the stable building looks structurally OK, but difficult to say without inspection, however if it is OK why not use it as it is and over time fill in the front with paneling of some sort. leaving the original timbers assuming they are sound.

The majority of the property looks rendered so unless the construction is adobe (mud brick) then I would suggest standard external wall insulation - including the stable block if you want that insulated.

Stegy

Peter many thanks for your reply, practical, informative and knowledgeable as always.

To clarify a couple of things.
The wood frame building on the end are animal pens which we want to remove reclaiming all timber and tiles etc. we did want to use it somewhat as you suggest but there are problems with headroom etc that make this too difficult.

The row of rendered outbuildings that you see are separate from the main house and are quite sound as far as water weather is concerned so for the reasons you stated we dont want to do any re roofing unless forced to, these consist of two large rooms (a former stable and a summer kitchen) with two smaller 8' by 14' rooms. This is the area we want to heat and use as a daytime work/hobby area

We have radiators with basic plumbing in all of these rooms and are planning a wet heating system with a condenser boiler situated in one of the smaller utility rooms which already has a water supply and a sink. A gas engineer has inspected the property and advised that we do need a new boiler in the separate main house, which already has gas CH, to bring it up to standard. ( we are happy to do this anyway) He also advised that a separate supply and boiler would be needed for the outbuildings. He was perhaps under the impression that we were wanting to use the outbuildings as 24hr living space rather than daytime work/hobby space.

I think my main concern is can we get the new boiler put into the main house to bring it up to standard and get a condenser boiler and wet heating system put into the outbuildings at the same time. putting it all on a new gas plan but without recourse to the planning authorities and the need for change of use complications and expense.

If this was the case we would look at adding external insulation and french windows (on the gable end where the animal pens are now) at a later date hopefully as you say as most Hungarians do without feeling the need to involve the authorities.

Sorry if my posts are slightly confused but that goes to state of mind and you are helping greatly to alleviate that

Peter_in_Hungary

In terms of heating there will be no difference between day time only use and 24 hour living space use. You will need a system capable of maintaining 20 deg. If you already have radiators and basic plumbing in the rooms then I can't see any change of use, you are just putting in a modern boiler.

If you put a new gas boiler in the main house this will have to be brought up to the current standard. If the existing boiler is repaired (how ever expensive that may be) then things can stay as they are. So you can change the burner, the heat exchanger and the controller on the existing (I think that just leaves the cabinet?) without implications. One of the current gas regulations is that if you have a gas hob or gas cooker you need an up to standard extractor that switches on when the gas is lit and you are not allowed a solid fuel fire with a chimney in the same air space. For the purposes of the regs. the same air space is the house, not the room as doors are not considered sufficient to separate the air space. (I believe a wood stove with an external air intake is acceptable but they are difficult to get = expensive) It is the new gas regs. which drive people to repair regardless their old gas boilers.

When I had gas CH installed in our rented house the gas plan was done by the gas fitting Co. as part of the package. I would expect the gas engineer to be able to sort out the gas plan as part of his work. The engineer should also be able to calculate the size of the boiler needed, but if you are going to insulate then either do the insulation first or tell the engineer what the insulation will be so that can be taken into account when sizing the boiler(s). Part of the plan will be to ensure that the supply (the meter) can cope with the load of the two boilers so if the property is insulated first then this could (should) reduce the size of the boiler(s)

You can also do the heating demands your self if you want to to check what is being recommended - it is not difficult.

By the way approximately where is the property?

Stegy

Hi Peter the house is in Mesztegnyo about 10 km south of Marcali on the 68.

The gas heating engineer seemed to think to bring the main house up to current standard we only had to replace the boiler and get a new cooker as the old Scottish one did not automatically reignite if the flame was blown out. He seemed happy with the extractor fan although it does not start automatically with the cooker, we had been thinking that we would replace both of these anyway.

The main thing is it sounds like it will be possible to install the gas boiler and heating in the outbuildings assuming the meter/supply can cope with it without going through the planning permission and change of use process with all the extra 8.000 plus GBP initial costs etc involved.

There was previously no heating or radiators in the outbuildings until we had these installed about two and a half years ago with a view to getting the gas supply and boiler fitted later. Would this fairly recent installation be likely to cause any problem getting with the boiler installed and a new gas plan , without a change of use application.

I take your point about boiler sizing and insulation etc as we would want the boiler to run as efficiently as possible.

I will have to sign off for the night just now but if you have any further info and ideas I will get back to you first thing tomorrow

Many thanks again this is really helpful

wolfi

This info is really appreciated.

It's probably not really relevant here (maybe interesting for others), but we installed a gas boiler of the new type that blows through a metallic vent to the outside and also gets its air this way - no chimney needed! Don't know the English term for that.

So we could use the existing chimney for our fireplace known here as kandalló.

Peter_in_Hungary

I would get the installing engineer to do the paperwork as part of the job. He will know what to put on the plan so as not to cause problems. Get a quote (not an estimate) first.

The installing engineer has the responsibility to ensure the installation is both safe and complies with the regs and he has to sign off the job so if he has done the plan and the installation, whilst it is you who may be dead from CO poisoning it is the engineer who will lose his licence!

Peter_in_Hungary

That type of gas boiler is a balanced flue boiler. These days I doubt that you can get a boiler that takes its combustion air from the room.

It is not the boilers that conflict with the wood stoves ('cos they are balanced flue) but the gas cookers.

The problem is that when people install lovely new efficient doors and windows this will stop the free flow of air that happened around the old windows so that when the extractor fan starts up to remove the CO produced by the cooker there is a real possibility that the air will be sucked down the chimney thus whilst removing the CO produced by the cooker the extractor also pulls in more CO and smoke from the chimney as all the other holes have been sealed up.

wolfi

Thanks, Peter! Hadn't read that expression "balanced flue boiler" before.

Again a bit OT:

Last winter our young ones stayed in the guest apartment which has its own boiler and they thought they smelled something so we were a bit worried and bought a CO detector which however signaled everything was ok.

Later while going for a walk we found out that the smell came from the neighbour's gas meter which is outside and facing our place!

So someone from the gas provider was called to do repairs.