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Dare I mention it...

Dare I mention it...

Old Mar 5th 2017, 3:49 am
  #91  
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Default Re: Dare I mention it...

Originally Posted by digger47
I think first Must put the Blame the Level of numbers of EU Migrants in UK squarely at the Government whom should have at system in place like Australia, all so if as with some one whom is entering UK on Visa under Immigration Directorate as Partner or Parent and Have to Pay a NHS Surcharge of £600.00 and that the have obtained a English speaking Certificate, Vetting of Such a entry Visa takes 12 weeks, Non of above for EU members entering UK, This last week and more to arrive DAILY hear we Have Fields of Narcissus Daffodils to be Harvested instead of Golden Heads dancing in pleasant Spring sunshine Days, But Hundreds of Migrant Back Sides waggling, collecting Daffodils, near to me I estimated well over 100 whom arrived in Cars better them I could Afford.OK wye no British doing this work, Well all Field Work is Given to Gang Masters they have no Time for UK workers. digger 47
I was under the impression that the reason foriegners do a lot of the agricultural work etc is that the pay is kak and locals don't want to do it. Same process as in Hungary where young people go to the cities to get better jobs and as education improves they have more options. Short of reintroducing serfdom in the UK and bussing unemployed people to East Anglia etc there is no way the foriegners will be replaced.

The point of freedom of movement is that is of workers or people who can support themselves i.e. pensioners. You can"t just waltz into EU countries without a job or nothing in the bank. I couldn't just come to Hungary. I had to PROVE I could support myself and that I had qualifications as well as my wife had to sign a declaration that I was living with her and it was a real marriage. I had to show a print out of my bank account. This process took weeks. The UK could do all of this too. It is all about political decisions. The UK CHOSE not to implement the controls it was eligible to do as the Germans did.

Oh and I have been on Job Seekers allowance in the UK twice. It is not a golden handshake to a life of plenty. Benefits are not generous.
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Old Mar 5th 2017, 6:04 am
  #92  
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Default Re: Dare I mention it...

Originally Posted by jetsam1
I was under the impression that the reason foriegners do a lot of the agricultural work etc is that the pay is kak and locals don't want to do it. Same process as in Hungary where young people go to the cities to get better jobs and as education improves they have more options. Short of reintroducing serfdom in the UK and bussing unemployed people to East Anglia etc there is no way the foriegners will be replaced.

The point of freedom of movement is that is of workers or people who can support themselves i.e. pensioners. You can"t just waltz into EU countries without a job or nothing in the bank. I couldn't just come to Hungary. I had to PROVE I could support myself and that I had qualifications as well as my wife had to sign a declaration that I was living with her and it was a real marriage. I had to show a print out of my bank account. This process took weeks. The UK could do all of this too. It is all about political decisions. The UK CHOSE not to implement the controls it was eligible to do as the Germans did.

Oh and I have been on Job Seekers allowance in the UK twice. It is not a golden handshake to a life of plenty. Benefits are not generous.
But EU Migrants do this They answer a Advertisement in there Owen Country giving them A Bed Of Roses so when they arrive they Have to pay Back all Charges getting Hear the Gang master charges them for accommodation ect. But 85% will only work hours given to pay out watt is owing and may on get £50.00 a week for them selves they are moved around doing work watt ever the Job and Unlike you have stated they will get Befits from the Government, her last year 86 wear deported owing to being Down and Out's through Drinking and not working digger47
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Old Mar 5th 2017, 6:12 am
  #93  
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Default Re: Dare I mention it...

Originally Posted by digger47
But EU Migrants do this They answer a Advertisement in there Owen Country giving them A Bed Of Roses so when they arrive they Have to pay Back all Charges getting Hear the Gang master charges them for accommodation ect. But 85% will only work hours given to pay out watt is owing and may on get £50.00 a week for them selves they are moved around doing work watt ever the Job and Unlike you have stated they will get Befits from the Government, her last year 86 wear deported owing to being Down and Out's through Drinking and not working digger47
Well then that is illegal. Simple as. Minimum wage legislation and laws against exploitation. If the government is not interested in applying the law then what can you do? The UK government obviously supports this type of behaviour from employers. The joke of zero-hour contracts etc. The problem is that UK employers won't pay enough for people to live properly. The fact that most of the welfare bill goes to people in work through housing benefit, working tax credits etc is the problem, not immigrants. It is a short term, maximum profits at any cost culture prevalent in UK business tacitly supported by government after government that is the real problem.

All the problems the UK has are purely the fault of the UK governments that have been elected. It's got nothing to do with the EU.
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Old Mar 5th 2017, 6:18 am
  #94  
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Default Re: Dare I mention it...

Originally Posted by jetsam1
Well then that is illegal. Simple as. Minimum wage legislation and laws against exploitation. If the government is not interested in applying the law then what can you do? The UK government obviously supports this type of behaviour from employers. The joke of zero-hour contracts etc. The problem is that UK employers won't pay enough for people to live properly. The fact that most of the welfare bill goes to people in work through housing benefit, working tax credits etc is the problem, not immigrants. It is a short term, maximum profits at any cost culture prevalent in UK business tacitly supported by government after government that is the real problem.

All the problems the UK has are purely the fault of the UK governments that have been elected. It's got nothing to do with the EU.
Yes you can blame the UK Government Licensing Gang Masters giving then to move Workers wear ever their is Work digger47
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Old Mar 5th 2017, 7:31 am
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Default Re: Dare I mention it...

Originally Posted by jetsam1
Well then that is illegal. Simple as. Minimum wage legislation and laws against exploitation. If the government is not interested in applying the law then what can you do? The UK government obviously supports this type of behaviour from employers. The joke of zero-hour contracts etc. The problem is that UK employers won't pay enough for people to live properly. The fact that most of the welfare bill goes to people in work through housing benefit, working tax credits etc is the problem, not immigrants. It is a short term, maximum profits at any cost culture prevalent in UK business tacitly supported by government after government that is the real problem.

All the problems the UK has are purely the fault of the UK governments that have been elected. It's got nothing to do with the EU.
As I understood that is how the gang masters get round the NMW laws - the employees are employees of the Polish gang masters at home, not employee's of the farm. The farmer pays for a service, not actual workers.
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Old Mar 5th 2017, 7:43 am
  #96  
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Default Re: Dare I mention it...

Originally Posted by 123Emily
As I understood that is how the gang masters get round the NMW laws - the employees are employees of the Polish gang masters at home, not employee's of the farm. The farmer pays for a service, not actual workers.
That is correct digger47
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Old Mar 5th 2017, 8:00 am
  #97  
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Default Re: Dare I mention it...

This is really horrible!

To give you a counterexample:

In a village near the town where I grew up in Germany there's a big farm that also has a lot of foreign workers, mainly from Poland. Some come only in summer for a few weeks and stay in tents, caravans or small RVs I heard that there used to be even teachers who wanted to make that extra money during school holidays.
The last time we went there (they also have a small shop where they sell their produce directly to customers) we were surprised to see that they had built a row of apartments - for some of their workers who they decided could work or were needed all year. And we saw children playing there ...

PS:
My (Hungarian) wife remarked that this small village Betra is the nicest place she's ever seen, so well kept, with lots of flowers in every garden etc ...
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Old Mar 5th 2017, 4:29 pm
  #98  
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Default Re: Dare I mention it...

Originally Posted by wolfi
This is really horrible!

To give you a counterexample:

In a village near the town where I grew up in Germany there's a big farm that also has a lot of foreign workers, mainly from Poland. Some come only in summer for a few weeks and stay in tents, caravans or small RVs I heard that there used to be even teachers who wanted to make that extra money during school holidays.
The last time we went there (they also have a small shop where they sell their produce directly to customers) we were surprised to see that they had built a row of apartments - for some of their workers who they decided could work or were needed all year. And we saw children playing there ...

PS:
My (Hungarian) wife remarked that this small village Betra is the nicest place she's ever seen, so well kept, with lots of flowers in every garden etc ...
I think you are missing the point UK Citizen Voted to leav EU because of the very high numbers entering UK and Leaving Brit's wanting work unable to gain work as Gang-masters had every part of Food Production in UK in their Control,OK this how it works, you take a Packing Station where every Fresh Food is taken for Prosecuting and Paging for Supermarket's they are no hrs. of work given when orders are completed then they are off Home. But after 12 weeks in same Packing-station the can apply for Full time Work, we not just taking a bought a few estimated 50 a week in my Area Taking British Citizen workers Jobs, my Sun in Law as lost his Job many Times work as he was working for a Agency not a Gang master owing EU Members taking his work, no Work as for so many Brits in my Area.
As to my self I am back in UK only returning often to maintain my Place, I had 7 years Living the "Good Life" I lived my way of life in 35 m2 with ever think you wishing for only collecting Fresh Meat weekly but Cancer as got Hold and no mater Watt any one Says Hungary could not Provide the Health Cover in my Case. Now as to the Future I have nothing to loss in any New Terms and Condition when UK Levis EU, as my place is serving my Needs digger47
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Old Mar 5th 2017, 7:44 pm
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Default Re: Dare I mention it...

Digger, I'm really sorry for you and hope the best for you!

But on the other hand that gang-master problem should be solved by the UK government!
We have in Germany similar gang problems but there are regular razzias on these people and they get sent home and the leaders go to prison.
A bit OT:
We also have gangs of pickpocketers and guys using the "grandson trick" and of course the police are after them.
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Old Mar 5th 2017, 7:58 pm
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Default Re: Dare I mention it...

Originally Posted by wolfi
Digger, I'm really sorry for you and hope the best for you!

But on the other hand that gang-master problem should be solved by the UK government!
We have in Germany similar gang problems but there are regular razzias on these people and they get sent home and the leaders go to prison.
A bit OT:
We also have gangs of pickpocketers and guys using the "grandson trick" and of course the police are after them.
And that is the point. It is entirely within the UK governments powers to stop this. The EU is just a convenient scapegoat for the failures locally.
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Old Mar 6th 2017, 6:38 am
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Default Re: Dare I mention it...

I worked on a fruit farm in the UK in 2004, only job I could find with accomodation over the holidays when I was at uni. There were 120 pickers, packers on that farm, mainly Polish, I was the only British worker out of 9 to last more than a week, the others were mainly students and went home to go and look for other jobs, It is back breaking, kneeling in cold mud picking daffodil in March and Strawberries in the summer with sunburn. you have to keep up production, or they will send you home and also you wont make enough money if you slow down, it is all piece work. We would wake up at 5am, and then be made to stand around for hours as sometimes the fruit would be too wet to pick, other times it would rain in the middle of the day and so we could not work would not be paid for hours of the day. The accommodation was dire - 6-8 of us paying £4.00 a day EACH to live in a 2 bedroom caravan, which was 30+ years old, rescued from the scrap heap, leaking with no plumbing, dirty, we had to walk to the farm tap for running water and shower in a communal block. £168 a week that farmer was making from each and every caravan, they would of cost more than that to scrap. Washing machine was an extra £5.00 and a thing of cooking gas £80.00. Plus after 4 days you are sick to death of eating strawberries and its boring. This is why people don't want these jobs.

Last edited by 123Emily; Mar 6th 2017 at 6:49 am.
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Old Mar 6th 2017, 7:16 am
  #102  
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Default Re: Dare I mention it...

Thanks, Emily, for sharing this!

50 to 55 years ago as a student I had similar experiences - working along Italian guys (later also Turks) in jobs that no German wanted ...
Since then I understand these people and respect them - nowodays when "commuting" between Hu ngary and germany I often see them on the motorway on Sunday and think of their hard life.
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Old Mar 6th 2017, 8:20 am
  #103  
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Default Re: Dare I mention it...

Originally Posted by 123Emily
I worked on a fruit farm in the UK in 2004, only job I could find with accomodation over the holidays when I was at uni. There were 120 pickers, packers on that farm, mainly Polish, I was the only British worker out of 9 to last more than a week, the others were mainly students and went home to go and look for other jobs, It is back breaking, kneeling in cold mud picking daffodil in March and Strawberries in the summer with sunburn. you have to keep up production, or they will send you home and also you wont make enough money if you slow down, it is all piece work. We would wake up at 5am, and then be made to stand around for hours as sometimes the fruit would be too wet to pick, other times it would rain in the middle of the day and so we could not work would not be paid for hours of the day. The accommodation was dire - 6-8 of us paying £4.00 a day EACH to live in a 2 bedroom caravan, which was 30+ years old, rescued from the scrap heap, leaking with no plumbing, dirty, we had to walk to the farm tap for running water and shower in a communal block. £168 a week that farmer was making from each and every caravan, they would of cost more than that to scrap. Washing machine was an extra £5.00 and a thing of cooking gas £80.00. Plus after 4 days you are sick to death of eating strawberries and its boring. This is why people don't want these jobs.
Lets just wind the clock back when I left School to Thick to Learn so Easter 1962 not even 15 45 hr week 2 bank Holidays a Year, started working on the Farms, then Gangs of Irish Men traveling from Farm to Farm doing contract work, and all so Factories Closed down for two weeks Holiday they could not afford two weeks Holiday so They Did Farm work for one week to pay for second weeks Holiday, mostly in the South, Hop Harvester and Apple Picking ect.Myself off and one week Holiday, to earn Money I had to take on contract work say sugar beet striking and singling later weeding payed by the Acre. At Harvest Time my Farmer Struggling to pay for Combined Harvester so I had to go to the owners fields to cut the Corn down at gate entrances and the corners they fed watt I cut down when they arrived, Later on Sugar Beat 10 Acres pulling laying down going back chop growth then loading up to cart off field then Forking on to Lorry's. Yes Farms who Could afford the Irish Field workers, did a long hard days work, So Farm Workers wear the Back Bone Then as Now
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Old Mar 13th 2017, 7:39 am
  #104  
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Default Re: Dare I mention it...

Well after the voting in the House of Commons today it is confirmed we and EU citizens living within the UK are no more than pawns in the little game of Brexit. I don't like feeling I am of no value other than as a bargaining chip.

Also as Parliament has voted itself into irrelevance it is now fairly certain that there will be a hard Brexit and the clowns won't get a deal as they are incapable of behaving like adults.

And the UK is ever more likely to break up as after this debacle the SNP must be confident of winning especially after all the promises last time never happened (see the "Vow" cobbled together).

So. It is time to prepare for the worst.
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Old Mar 13th 2017, 8:25 pm
  #105  
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Default Re: Dare I mention it...

Jetsam, for you Brits in the EU it won'tbe too bad imho!

Hungary etc know very well that they profit from the expats - reminds me a bit of the situation before 1989 when you could get "everything" for your Deutsche Mark, Pounds or $s ...
The EU citizens in the UK however ...

Still, imho again the UK depends in a way on the EU - so they will have to compromise. If the die-hard Brexiteers don't accept it now they'll soon learn. The EU is always painted as a bunch of weaklings, but that's not true - here all EU members will work together. To paraphrase an old saying:

The mills of the EU work slowly, but very fine in the end ...
I'm happy that my family all have British passports!
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