FenTiger

In the village, Malyi, where my wife's family live alot of properties have either a garage under the house or at the back of the house. I don't understand the thinking behind the latter. I feel it is a waste of garden space having a driveway from the front of the property to the back of the house. At the back of the house I'd use that space for an outdoor kitchen/covered terrace.

Peter_in_Hungary

They are expensive and with the thinner blocks with external insulation (EWI) you can get a better insulation value than the combined blocks also with EWI you get the chance to place the windows within the insulation layer which is the best place as far as insulating goes. Also savings can be made on foundations where strip foundations are used.

It is not just the outside aesthetic work that needs attention, in fact the inside is more important and in particular the vapour control layer (VCL) under the plasterboard that is the most important. If this is not done properly or holes are made in it (e.g. by the electrician) then moist air from the house will go into the wall and can condense on the timber frame (being colder than the insulation) and can cause rot in a few years.

scrubbedexpat142

Yes, one of the solutions to this was to use a vapour barrier fixed to the studwork with a batten over (38 or 50 mm gap) & vapour check plasterboard as inner liner, so you had 2 shots at it! Mind you pressure treated timber is pretty resilient now. In fairness there are a lot of "cheap & nasty" timber frames in the UK that are still sound after 40 or 50 years!

warrenpeace

peter , expatrick ,fen tiger and jack many thanks guys all this info is really opening up options and when i can get a day i will be researching more .

jack i had seen the insulated porotherm blocks and need to look more closely at them as a single component wall is what i wish to build as i feel it has all the properties i need from construction to performance and the internal environment i would like .
peter you say they are expensive in hungary ? do you have a link to a reputable supplier so i can look and do so sums on the product .
i dont want to go down the external wall insulation route as i feel the achievement it gives you can be achieved with single component wall and render , adds to workload and as much as the companies say they are fire retardant none of them will comitt to them being non combustible .
so i dont see a benefit yet but i am in the early stages of investigating different systems .

i think i have discounted timber frame as vapour seals , timber rot and most of the work being done by others is not what i want .

peter the issue you raised about the ytong block not taking fixings well i have raised with ytong and am awaiting a reply , i also discussed this with some civil engineers at work and although ytong is not widely used they said that silka aac panels where used for many years on housing and commercial project and that it was a case of using the correct fixings .
expanding fixings ( even the lowly rawl plug ) hilti and fishing fixings that require expansion to grip were not allowable due to potential to crack but chem fix studs were used to hold toilets and sinks with no issues and kitchen units used the same .so more research for me to do here i think .
i will be asking ytong for a pull test demonstration and sheer force examples before comitting to anything .

busy weekend of viewings ahead but i am hoping to spend some more time comparing the £$forint price per sqm as well as construction time and ease of construction . so hopefully i will have some more info and questions next week .
when ytong reply to the fixings email i will update the thread .

if any of you guys can recomend any websites for suppliers of building materials in hungary i would be greatfull .
gentlemen please have a great weekend and i look forward to hearing your replies and advice
regards
warren
excuse to spelling and grammar i am rushing around like a nutcase and had to rush the reply .

Jack_Russells4ever

Warren, Peter, thinks the 44cm Porotherm walls are too thick and require a much more robust foundation and he is right. The 30cm ones would work but I do not care for applying external insulation either but just personal preference. A lot of things for you to consider. I am not at this time planning a build but if I were, Porotherm would be my 1st choice. I think YTong has too many negatives.

warrenpeace

many thanks jack .
still in my research phase so all info welcome .
could you expand on the negatives for ytong as i had reservations about the robustness of the products but the more i have researched the more it seems this system is being used across europe and asia . i am just worried that a new system has not had long enough to be assessed , but i believe its been around for many decades in various guises ??
if designing to build with wider porotherm blocks would the foundations not be designed around the weight of product , we build multi story concrete buildings that stand for centuries so as long as foundation design matches building weight i dont understand what issues could arise . is it just the cost increase for the foundation needed for these blocks ?if so how big a differance (%) cost would be added ?
thanks again for your time jack .
warren

warrenpeace

also peter ,
i forgot to thank you for your indepth info on internal services and regs . yes i can complete all internal wiring and plumbing and will be studying the difference in hungarian practice to the uk ones i have used for decades . final connections to breaker board and gas connections for boilers i would want a licienced expert to carry these out .
in the uk even with gas safe regs i can fit boilers plumb the gas and water pipework and just pay a gas safe plumber to check install ,fire up and comission so that warranty and landlord certs are given . is this possible in hungary or frowned on ? same with electrics ?
big thanks for the time and info you have already given , sorry if im being a pain .
regards
warren .

Jack_Russells4ever

Biggest problem with YTong is fastening things to it. Of course the foundations for wider Porotherm blocks would need to be more robust for a wider block resulting in increased building cost. Since I have not built with Porotherm I cannot give you pricing differences here in Hungary. Of course your location may also influence the cost such as at Balaton or Budapest areas due to demand.

Peter_in_Hungary

A quick dip into some prices showed that the 44cm insulated porotherm come in at almost twice the price of 30cm porotherm + 20cm EWI added to which the foundations for 44cm are about 50% more assuming concrete shuttering blocks are used rather than full fill trench.

Fixing to Ytong blocks as I understand it can't cope with expanding type fixings so no nipping into to the garage for a plastic rawl plug - ever. It's mixing up the 2 part goop.

BTW warrenpeace, what are you planning to build? Modest house with built in attic area or something more grand.

scrubbedexpat142

Having extolled the virtues of timber frame I have to confess to a new found appreciation of solid forms of construction!

Our house is 90 years old and the external walls are ≥ 300 mm thick - warm in winter, cool(er) in summer. To qualify the former, 90 m2, 3.3 m ceiling height, 3 external walls almost completely fenestrated with 1800 mm (high) x 600 mm double windows (double not double glazed), room thermostat set at 22c, monthly gas bill = 15,000 pcm inc. hot water).

warrenpeace

hi peter ,
to be honest the foundations and their design in hungary are my week point and so this is something i will need to get up to speed with , but my partners son in law has built a few houses recently and said for the type of house ( size shape, and he built with porotherm ) that i should budget about 3m forint , as i said in the original post i wish to find out for myself in case the help offered is not forthcoming .
we are not looking to build a stately home and a complex shape with complex roof is not for us .
you are correct , we want a simple house in the region of 10m x 9 with half hieght wall in upper level with plain gable up and over roof .
i want a 6x5 garage which i would like to be accessable from the house but not part of the house .

when researching house building in europe we have found many websites that show house examples and their floor plans , and when i can learn how to link these examples to the thread i will put them up for you as this may make clearer what we hope to build .
i must admit most are from xella and ytong as i have not found any examples from other systems that come close to the detail given .
but not having been on this fact finding for too long it is quite difficult to find the websites needed in a foriegn language .
when i can link the houses i have found that closely represent our typical house needs i will let you know as i am hoping you may be able to point me to other websites of other building systems that are not ytong so i can to my due diligence before settling for one system .
as i have said , i want a single component wall house with good thermal properties , ease of construction for a one man team with occasional helpers that will provide a nice year round inside environment .
i am going to meet with an engineer i used to work with in a couple of weeks . his partner is german and works for woodrow construction in uk . she has not worked with ytong in england but says it is used extensively in germany . i want to be sure of its abilities so i am hoping she can get info from ex colleagues and family in germany .
any info you can share to increase my knowledge in the foundation department would be great ,]also was looking at gable beam and purlin roof to allow the main bedroom to be upstairs . i believe this needs carefull planning not to create a sauna . although cheap ac will be available from subcontracters i have had work for me in the past i would prefer to reduce the reliance on ac as much as poss so any design tips for the roof/components would be great .
i am using house examples and floorplans from internet site to get a basic design of the house shell and room layouts to incorporate into my revit design and will post this when i have the time to play with the revit program as i am new to it .

expatrick , i share your like for single thick walls , if the walls and their thermal properties are very good is there a need for 3.3m high ceilings . i was looking at 2.6m ffl to ceiling height . but cool in summer and warm in winter is great . is that 1500pcm an average for the year of just during the winter months also is the 90sqm a single story building ?
thanks again gents hopefully i can get some examples of house style , size and layout to the thread over the weekend .
thanks guys .
guys would it be rude of me to ask you how long you have lived in hungary , the more i look through the britexpat site its clear you gents have been around helping others a long time .
as much i love hungary ,have both english speaking and non english speaking friends their i have only come across a few full time expats living there . one was a renound kiwi photographer that i met at margret island strand and the other was a ex us marine that i met at pink floyd concert at puskas stadium .very loud , slightly drunks and lost his number .
learning the lingo scares the hel out of me but i know i can do it . being in hungary will help im sure as always performed best when thrown in at the deep end .
thanks again gents

warrenpeace

is it ok to post links to other websites showing examples of house designs ??
one week in and dont want to blot my copybook !

warrenpeace

peter can i fill out the onsite diary with the help of my partner or does it have to be done by a registered builder .
last conversation i had with the mrs son in law ( with her translating as he speaks no english and my partners english is not great ) he was saying that he could help with the diary .
now i know he has built 2 houses himself ( oversaw contractors mostly ) i could not ascertain weather he had relevant status or if it is needed at all as it seem that it is common for families to build their own houses even if they are not builders by trade .
regards
warren

scrubbedexpat142

WP- mine is single floor apartment within a 3 storey house. The ceiling height is a matter of traditional style (in Pest many apartments have 4.5 ceilings) - I could never go back to a ceiling of less than 3M - personal choice. 15K gas is average monthly payment across the year.

Been here 5 years, a mere whippersnapper compared to Peter!

Peter_in_Hungary

There are 2 types of foundations mainly used in Hungary (although occasionally a reinforced concrete raft is used) either a full fill trench or strip foundation at the base and wall up to DPC level. For the full fill method the concrete is bulked out with stones. For strip method a concrete strip is poured at the base and a wall is built the same width as the house wall above. This wall is typically constructed of concrete shuttering blocks which are loose laid and then filled with concrete. This method is cheaper than full fill unless you have a (free) source of basalt rocks. The width and depth will depend upon the local ground conditions but will not be less than 500mm wide and 900mm deep. The strip method also has the advantage that if EWI is used then this can be carried down to the concrete to mitigate the cold bridge usually found at DPC level.

Your target house of 10m x 9m with a half height 1st floor is fairly common here but I would go for dormer windows as you get more useable space and they are much easier to get good thermal properties than the Velux type of roof windows which can lead to over heating in the summer and be cold in the winter. A 3M forint budget could be a bit of a challenge with todays prices.

I would not plan to install AC. If the house is well insulated and the south facing windows have a decent overhang from the roof to reduce solar gain then AC should net be needed. In the summer we run with the windows shut when it is hotter outside and open when it is cooler outside i.e shut during the day and open at night. Also it is worth considering mechanical ventilation with heat reclaim (MVHR) to run during the winter, spring and autumn. Modern houses with good windows and doors lack the draughts of old houses and so usually lack adequate ventilation unless design steps are taken to provide this and opening windows in the winter just doesn't happen enough.

The online building diary is filled in by the builder.

And yes learning the lingo is a pain and having a Hungarian partner/wife can be both an advantage and disadvantage (can make you lazy)

Apartments have very different heating demands to houses so a comparison is not very easy.

We've been here 25 years and run an organic farm