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Boundaries and Surveys

Boundaries and Surveys

Old May 20th 2020, 6:25 pm
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Default Boundaries and Surveys

Explain to me how property boundaries work here in Hungary? We bought a property a few months back and had a survey done for construction of new fencing on our right side fence. The old fence was in a sad state. We had a licensed surveyor come mark the property lines and the neighbor was less than happy when he discovered that his fence was no were near the boundary. In fact it was several meters inside our property. How should we react to this situation? We want no troubles but why should we give up land we paid for?
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Old May 20th 2020, 6:27 pm
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Default Re: Boundaries and Surveys

Discuss with mayor and neighbour. Get an interpreter unless your Magyar is 100 perecent.
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Old May 20th 2020, 6:36 pm
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Our Hungarian is at the very start of learning. We don't want troubles but we don't want to start off submissively either. Honestly if it were off less than 1 meter we would not care but in places its off 5 or more meters, We were told that our Tanya was part of the next door neighbors property before he purchased it after the former owner died. We think it was never surveyed after the property was divided among his heirs and what fence was there was assumed to be the boundary. There was no issue with the ownership when we purchased it according to the Solicitor we engaged at the time of purchase.
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Old May 20th 2020, 6:41 pm
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Default Re: Boundaries and Surveys

Originally Posted by RickyRocket98 View Post
Explain to me how property boundaries work here in Hungary? We bought a property a few months back and had a survey done for construction of new fencing on our right side fence. The old fence was in a sad state. We had a licensed surveyor come mark the property lines and the neighbor was less than happy when he discovered that his fence was no were near the boundary. In fact it was several meters inside our property. How should we react to this situation? We want no troubles but why should we give up land we paid for?
Several meters is not acceptable imo, get a lawyer, produce the land plan (fact) and prepare for whatever, this is your land that imo the neighbour is completely aware of the situation. Good luck, its your choice, i know what I would do. Long story shut short, it took me 2 years to contact the farmer who used my land ( they will not approach you) went through my lawyer who was in complete agreement, proposed the annual fee for using my land no problem, oh I have to remind him by post to pay up and he is closely linked to the Mayor of the village, I don't care, show strength. Thats my experience.based on fact.
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Old May 21st 2020, 5:54 am
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Default Re: Boundaries and Surveys

Originally Posted by scot47 View Post
Discuss with mayor and neighbour. Get an interpreter unless your Magyar is 100 perecent.
I think this is the best approach. The mayor may know a thing or two about the reason why the fence is in the wrong place. I do not live in Hungary but do visit my wife's family every year and every time I head to my sister-in-law's house I notice a small strip of land which an old lady uses like an allotment. Looking at it from the road it appears to be part of the plot of land for the property adjacent ot it. Luckily for the old lady this house has been empty for atleast 15 years so no one has ever challenged her. But no doubt once someone buys the property this old lady will have to give up this strip of land.
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Old May 21st 2020, 6:05 am
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Default Re: Boundaries and Surveys

Originally Posted by RickyRocket98 View Post
Our Hungarian is at the very start of learning. We don't want troubles but we don't want to start off submissively either. Honestly if it were off less than 1 meter we would not care but in places its off 5 or more meters, We were told that our Tanya was part of the next door neighbors property before he purchased it after the former owner died. We think it was never surveyed after the property was divided among his heirs and what fence was there was assumed to be the boundary. There was no issue with the ownership when we purchased it according to the Solicitor we engaged at the time of purchase.
I think there is an element of land grab here. It seems maybe the neighbour knowing the owner was old and probably not up to wanting any hassle allowed the neighbour to put up a fence several metres onto the plot you bought. Challenge it. I hope you recover the costs from the neighbour who may have cheekily thought they could grab some of the plot you bought from the previous owner!
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Old May 21st 2020, 7:29 am
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Default Re: Boundaries and Surveys

Originally Posted by RickyRocket98 View Post
Explain to me how property boundaries work here in Hungary? We bought a property a few months back and had a survey done for construction of new fencing on our right side fence. The old fence was in a sad state. We had a licensed surveyor come mark the property lines and the neighbor was less than happy when he discovered that his fence was no were near the boundary. In fact it was several meters inside our property. How should we react to this situation? We want no troubles but why should we give up land we paid for?
IMO you should get the fence in the correct position.
The Land Office hold maps and title deeds of all property in Hungary. The Law states that documentation held in Land Office is taken as fact. This means that boundary disputes or quetions are easily resolved. There is a procedure laid down for measuring boundaries the essence of which is that you hire a Land Measurer to measure the plot, get an appointment for the measuring and then invite all the adjoining owners to witness the measurement. The land measurer will measure the plot putting red stakes at the relevant places, e.g. corners or direction changes of the boundary. once done it is an offense to move or disturb the red boundary markers. Neighbouring owners must be notified / invited to witness the measurement preferably in writing by registered recorded letter and given adequate notice - say 10 days prior the the measurement.
People often don't get their land measured because it costs money and if they are happy with the fence - why bother. The fence could be in the wrong place for number or reasons - historical baggage or malice (land grab) are two that come to mind. If your neighbour was not present at the original measuring and is still unhappy or refuses to accept the boundary I suggest you offer to get the plot remeasured with him in attending and witnessing the measurement so that he can see the truth of the matter. It will also help if you can get the mayor on your side.
The land measurer should have given you an official map of your plot.
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Old May 21st 2020, 9:41 am
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Default Re: Boundaries and Surveys

We have had a similar issue with our boundary. After arguments with our neighbour I got a provisional plan from our Mayor with measurements. We then realised that in fact the boundary was wrong in our favour. We then got the land surveyor in who measured our land and updated the land registry accordingly. I have copies of the official l land registry docs. It cost 120000 fts. I was told that we cannot forcibly take the land back, I don’t want it and would rather that the boundary is legally redrawn as it is currently laid out. I am waiting to negotiate this with the neighbour. I am hoping he will pay the cost to do this which is roughly the same as I have already paid for the land survey.
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Old May 21st 2020, 10:29 am
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Default Re: Boundaries and Surveys

After having a visit between me, the Mayor and a former owner of the plot next door, Some light has been shown on why and what happened. The present neighbour has owned the property next door almost 11 years. The owner before him stated the fence was that way when he bought it back in 1986. The boundary was not marked by a surveyor when he bought it nor was it when the present neighbour purchased it. The fence that is there in the wrong spot may be more than 50 years old so I don't feel that their was any deliberate effort to grab extra territory. The Mayor stated that he thought that the reason the fence was that way was our plot had been used as a sheep pasture and the line was put up to follow the terrain and some trees that the fence was attached to trees to save on the cost of fence post.

So, the present owner is still unhappy but part of the problems likely causation is solved. Now, the question is how to amicably resolve the issue to everyone's satisfaction. Some of his land is in our garden as well but only a small part that is of no interest to me. I would consider having the boundary redrawn but I certainly don't want to relinquish everything to make the guy happy. I am not sure what to do and whom should pay for it. I already have to replace 270+ meters of fence at my expense as it is.
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Old May 21st 2020, 12:39 pm
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Default Re: Boundaries and Surveys

What measurements were you given when you bought the plot? Did it include the area where the fence or boundary should be? Also same with the neighbour? Has anyone thought of measuring the square metres for the neighbour's plot? I would think if the neighbour bought the plot advertised as being XYZ square metres but where the current fence is the square metres is higher this I would think this would mean the neighbour doesn't own it as he only paid for XYZ square metres.

There must be a record somewhere of the plot size for both properties.
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Old May 21st 2020, 12:57 pm
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Default Re: Boundaries and Surveys

Originally Posted by RickyRocket98 View Post
After having a visit between me, the Mayor and a former owner of the plot next door, Some light has been shown on why and what happened. The present neighbour has owned the property next door almost 11 years. The owner before him stated the fence was that way when he bought it back in 1986. The boundary was not marked by a surveyor when he bought it nor was it when the present neighbour purchased it. The fence that is there in the wrong spot may be more than 50 years old so I don't feel that their was any deliberate effort to grab extra territory. The Mayor stated that he thought that the reason the fence was that way was our plot had been used as a sheep pasture and the line was put up to follow the terrain and some trees that the fence was attached to trees to save on the cost of fence post.

So, the present owner is still unhappy but part of the problems likely causation is solved. Now, the question is how to amicably resolve the issue to everyone's satisfaction. Some of his land is in our garden as well but only a small part that is of no interest to me. I would consider having the boundary redrawn but I certainly don't want to relinquish everything to make the guy happy. I am not sure what to do and whom should pay for it. I already have to replace 270+ meters of fence at my expense as it is.
So it would appear that the reason for the fence in the wrong place is historical baggage compounded by the fact that no one went to the expense of having their newly purchased property measured properly. You are not alone in this - there are a lot of properties waiting to give owners a (nasty) surprise if/when their property is measured. IMO the solution should be to put the new fence on the correct defined boundary. At the end of the day both you and your neighbour bought a property that was defined in Land Office - not what was defined by an old fence.

Redrawing the boundaries is IMO the wrong solution and won't be cheap and why should you give away your land that you have paid for. Your neighbour might be unhappy as will anyone who gets a nasty surprise but it's not your fault (he could/should have checked the boundaries at purchase time) and your neighbour will get over it.

Regarding the new fence there is standard of who owns which fence (left or right side) but I can't remember it, however I suggest that you try to come to an agreement with your neighbour about the cost and be prepared to foot the bill yourself. When you do put up the fence invite the neighbour to witness (help?) to avoid later disputes. A legal fence can be as simple as a single strand of string. The purpose of a legal fence is not to keep out the invading hoards but rather to mark the boundary. E.g. a fence does not have to keep out your neighbours dog, that is their problem to keep their dog off your property

Originally Posted by cathyg View Post
We have had a similar issue with our boundary. After arguments with our neighbour I got a provisional plan from our Mayor with measurements. We then realised that in fact the boundary was wrong in our favour. We then got the land surveyor in who measured our land and updated the land registry accordingly. I have copies of the official l land registry docs. It cost 120000 fts. I was told that we cannot forcibly take the land back, I don’t want it and would rather that the boundary is legally redrawn as it is currently laid out. I am waiting to negotiate this with the neighbour. I am hoping he will pay the cost to do this which is roughly the same as I have already paid for the land survey.
See my views above about redrawing boundaries. Do you know who put the fence in the wrong place? (land grab?) Your neighbour should purchase your land from you and pay all the cost of having the boundary changed. Why should you be out of pocket so that they can have the advantage of your land? You have an official map and the surveyor should have put in red boundary marker posts I mentioned above so putting in the correct fence would be easy. You can't take back the land forcibly, the route is to ask the occupier to leave and if they don't you follow this with a registered recorded letter asking them to leave within 30 days and threaten legal action if they don't. If they don't leave you start court proceedings. The only person who can take the land back for you is the bailiff - and it's their job. I know how it works - bin there, dun that !!
Most people leave once they reailise you are serious!

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Old May 21st 2020, 3:07 pm
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Default Re: Boundaries and Surveys

We were not given a plot map at time of closing and transfer of money and to be honest we did not even think about such until later when we decided the fence needed replacement, in the excitement of buying we probably would not have noticed the map of the boundaries as a problem anyway.. We engaged a Hungarian Survey who provided us with the plot sq meter measurement (8149m2) and the distances between each survey marker. It was only then that the discovery of the fence being located wrong was apparent. As I stated earlier our property and the neighbors were in the past all owned by the same owner and after his death did the family heirs decide to split up the property into 2 parcels. When the old fence was built it was not on a boundary. It is the owner of the property responsibility to replace the fence on his right boundary hence this is how we arrived at this situation. I am going to discuss the matter with a Ugved in a few days and then go from there. I am not hung up about losing or gaining more garden just want to do what is moral and legal to do. Probably no matter what we offer is not going to make the neighbour happy but if what we do meets the requirements of Hungarian law then we will just have to live with what happens. The neighbour is in his late 70's so he may not be bothering us long term judging by how bad his smokers cough is. The neighbour was present when the surveyor was on site with his markers being set.




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Old May 21st 2020, 5:01 pm
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Default Re: Boundaries and Surveys

Originally Posted by RickyRocket98 View Post
We were not given a plot map at time of closing and transfer of money and to be honest we did not even think about such until later when we decided the fence needed replacement, in the excitement of buying we probably would not have noticed the map of the boundaries as a problem anyway.. We engaged a Hungarian Survey who provided us with the plot sq meter measurement (8149m2) and the distances between each survey marker. It was only then that the discovery of the fence being located wrong was apparent. As I stated earlier our property and the neighbors were in the past all owned by the same owner and after his death did the family heirs decide to split up the property into 2 parcels. When the old fence was built it was not on a boundary. It is the owner of the property responsibility to replace the fence on his right boundary hence this is how we arrived at this situation. I am going to discuss the matter with a Ugved in a few days and then go from there. I am not hung up about losing or gaining more garden just want to do what is moral and legal to do. Probably no matter what we offer is not going to make the neighbour happy but if what we do meets the requirements of Hungarian law then we will just have to live with what happens. The neighbour is in his late 70's so he may not be bothering us long term judging by how bad his smokers cough is. The neighbour was present when the surveyor was on site with his markers being set.
Putting up a fence in the wrong place without amending the boundaries is IMO just building problems for tomorrow. ( e.g. when the neighbouring plot is sold. As you say "Probably no matter what we offer is not going to make the neighbour happy" and the right thing to do is to put the fence where it belongs. I would save the money on the solicitor and tell the neighbour that you are going to put the new fence on the measured out boundary and pay for it yourself. This would be the legally correct thing to do.
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Old May 21st 2020, 5:23 pm
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The problem could get worse if the neighbour conks out and whoever inherits it or buys the plot refuses to accept the correct boundary.
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Old May 21st 2020, 5:33 pm
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Default Re: Boundaries and Surveys

Originally Posted by FenTiger View Post
The problem could get worse if the neighbour conks out and whoever inherits it or buys the plot refuses to accept the correct boundary.
Get a lawyer
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