jetsam1

Hi,

In a previous thread the traditional adobe style houses where mentioned and it was also mentioned that Brits really don't have any knowledge about this style of building. This I would suspect to be true for the large part, especially as I don't anything about DIY, building etc and anon......

It would be interesting to have some information from those with experience of these as it does seem prevalent especially in more rural areas. Also my googling only seems to bring up specifically eco type websites, generalist and company websites all of which can present basics but all of which also carry their own particular biases or are selling something.

Ok, basic construction, the foundations and especially upkeep? Modern materials are to be avoided aren't they? Can you go two stories? How bad does it have to be before it isn't worth trying to renovate? Rough costs of building plus repair?

My wife has a cottage in a village a little past Kecskemet (Bocsa) that we are considering sorting out to permanently emplace and develop the bees at as it's nicely out of the way, just inside a national park and has a decent bit of land and plenty opportunity to expand it. The cottage is adobe construction and seems dry and it is quite old but the roof seems ok. The internal joists in the main room have collapsed so all the woodwork of the ceiling and floor of the upstairs hayloft will probably need replacing. Outside of that being inside in high summer it was so cool it was lovely! Oh and no plumbing or electrical wiring to complicate matters as it can all be done as modern fitting. We are considering applying for an EU grant for rural development as it looks like my wife is rather eligible and it would be good to work for oneself (poverty wages slaving for someone else or poverty wages at least from you own endeavors!).

It's seems a nice area and the nearest neighbours are decent too.

Oh one other thing, do building surveyors exist in the same way they do in the UK? It's something I'd want to check with before doing anything! My wife had a big falling out with her sister-in-law and so now we will need to find another builder too..... :-( :-)

fidobsa

I suppose if you already have the place it is worth doing but my general advice would be to avoid adobe construction when choosing a house to buy. In my case I knew as little as most people about these houses when I started house-hunting in Hungary but the ones I considered were rejected on the basis of layout. A lot of them are long, narrow buildings which means walking through one room to get to another.

Rural Hungary

There used to be a long thread on adobe properties but as Peter mentioned on another thread, best leave alone if you don't know anything about them or get a specialist to look at it for you as what can look structurally sound can actually already be beyond the point of repair.

jetsam1

I think that's the best overall response. Just it's already there thought it worth checking out. As well as replacing it with something else would be possibly a bit too expensive at the moment unless there is something I really have missed. The lack of having to go out and buy something with all the hassle that entails did appeal...... And my wife has owned it for around 10-15 years and not really sure if it's really saleable to fund somewhere else.

We will need to find a specialist then to check it out...... No doubt easier said than done......

Amid all this realism it's hard to keep the old morale up!! Where we are probably isn't suitable long term for what we want to do but we will see. It's just the decades worth of stuff accumulated in the garden by the inlaws that might one day be "useful" makes me yearn for a clean field to build a polytunnel or two....... Would be nice to keep the bees in one place and behind a decent fence as well.....

Rural Hungary

Send Peter on here a PM Jetsam. He has family who can do a comprehensive property survey though not sure if that includes adobe. If the property shows no signs of weathering, slumping, bowing or cracks in the exterior walls then it should be okay but better to have somebody look at it before spending money on it. Many of these properties can take years or indeed decades of water ingress before being irreversibly damaged so long as they are in their natural state and moisture can evaporate through the walls. It's when cement render is applied to the exterior then modern plaster to the inside and the moisture is trapped in the wall that problems occur. Likewise, put in a concrete floor with a DPM and any moisture is forced out to the walls causing further problems.

Peter_in_Hungary

Going back 100 years or so the mud brick adobe type of construction was used as a locally sourced available building material. In the area I am in, the Balaton Uplands, there are little to no adobe houses as stone (basalt rock) is available for the collecting so stone/rubble buildings abound. - There is only so far you can haul building materials with a horse and cart.

IMO adobe or vályogtégla houses were not built with the intention that they last for generations, they were cheap to build and could be rebuilt quickly. I was speaking to a Romanian builder some years back and he said that it would take him 2 weeks to make the bricks for a house! And this was from locally sourced materials. Roof timbers came from the forest, used in the round and the thatch would be cut from the local marsh. - cheap and quick and of course no bureaucracy then.

Fast forward 100 years and the vályog houses that are still standing are starting to have problems. Its is said that vályog houses need strong boots and a good hat, that is the first 60cm (from ground level, minimum) should be stone and the roof should be watertight. If the roof fails the house will 'melt'.

The roof construction is designed to avoid side thrust on the walls (modern Hungarian construction uses concrete ring beams to carry this loading) and the internal joists can be part of the structure to avoid this side thrust (depends upon the design) so the fact that the joists have collapsed could be something that needs immediate attention to preserve the walls. Also if the joists have failed this could be because of rot due to a bad roof, (see above re 'a good hat') again attention needed if long term preservation is required.

Vályog houses can be renovated, but only if the structure is fairly sound to start with. (And has stone foundations and doesn't have 3 inch cracks in the walls) As has been said the renovation has to be done with materials compatible with the vályog. You don't put a second story on vályog houses but you can build in the roof space. The cost of works depend upon what is done, there is a thread here on tradesman costs. The basic maintenance materials should be lime based, including painting, and repairs should be done sooner rather than put off.

Surveyors as in the UK do not exist here. You have structural engineers who undertake this role. (építőmérnök = structural engineer, építészmérnök = architect)

I have sent you a PM.

Jack_Russells4ever

Anyone have any experience with the new techniques of earth bag style homes? These are basically filled sandbags. Or How about the straw bale methods of home building?
Seems like these methods could work good and be affordable.

Peter_in_Hungary

Neither of these techniques are 'new', earth bag (and rammed earth) building will have the same problems as vályog and there are no structural strawbale houses in Hungary (as far as I know) The strawbale houses that are here are timber frame with strawbale infill. Thus the strawbale is the insulation between and around the timber frame which provides the structural strength. It is a problem here to get the right sort of strawbales (clean, dry and at the right density) to do a good job.

I heard of a rammed earth house some years ago (in Hungary) and by all accounts it was very labour intensive. I am told you would not get permission for a structural strawbale house here as you could not prove the structural strength of the bales.

For affordable builds (= cheaper than standard build) timber frame with OSB outside, plasterboard inside and insulation between probably comes close to concrete block with expanded polystyrene external insulation. However IMO any new build should be built to a standard that would not require heating. There is no point in building a cheap house if you have to spend the rest of your life poring energy into it to keep warm/cool winter and summer.

Jack_Russells4ever

Well, it was a thought. I figured the sand bags might hold the materials together better. The straw bale homes I have seen are timber framed and not reliant upon the straw bales for support. I have also considered underground houses but ditched that idea because I don't relish living in a dungeon.

jetsam1

My Father-in-Law suggested timber frame filled in with the mud bricks and then rendered. We're going to think about it and until we quit the current jobs just simply don't have time to make any meaningful start. We will see what state the current build is, the footprint is reasonably big so hopefully if needed direct replacement on that would ok with the planners. But this is Hungary so you never know....... Either that or single storey brick/concrete blocks. This will though most likely be a one generation thing as there is no guarentee our daughter would be interested in any of this!

Peter_in_Hungary

Timber frame with mud brick infill would be an expensive option. I know someone who did this and the mud bricks were quite expensive and the thermal performance was not good. This was because the mud bricks were only 20cm thick as opposed to 50cm or more on a traditional mud brick build. To build at 50cm thick would have been prohibitively expensive.

Given the choice between timber frame and concrete bloke I would probably go for concrete block and external insulation as the building process is less critical. Timber frame requires good attention to detail and the various vapour control layers and breathable layers need proper attention to detail that the average builder doesn't put into the building unless the owner is there and keeps a check on what is happening. Hungarian builders understand concrete and rendering and are less familiar with timber frame requirements and the consequences of poor attention to detail.

jetsam1

The animal house/pigeon loft we have here is concrete block and was a very quick build (A major bone of contention for me as they were playing with their stupid pigeons rather than doing the work I expected on the house. We had to have work done before we moved over). I just wasn't entirely sure over it's thermal qualities. Actually considering the building it would be a ok size for a reasonable little house if laid out cleverly.

I suppose we'd have to wait to find out what the local planners would allow. And yes if we have tradespeople I will be standing over their shoulders inspecting everything. I don't know how much you are allowed to do yourself, I would presume there would be certain jobs you'ld have to have qualified people to do? Electrics and plumbing excepted as I am not playing with them!

Peter_in_Hungary

Concrete block 225mm thick gives a u value of 1.19
Put 10cm external insulation on it and you get a u value of 0.28
Put 20cm external insulation on it and you get a u value of 0.16
Put 30cm external insulation on it and you get a u value of 0.11

A u value of 0.11 would mean that you would only need heating for 1 or 2 weeks a year and then a small fan heater would do. (providing the rest of the house matched the walls.
(u value is a measure of heat transfer/loss. Loss in watts = u * m2 * deg. C difference. (temp. inside to outside)