Douglas M

Hi Remy ,

Thanks for the info, ill check it out, hopefully others will too.

The problem of visa renewal for FNs is one of my main issues and the one i seem to be having the most trouble getting across.

regards
douglas

TONY P

Hi Douglas I have followed your discussions with a lot of interest and agree with you on a lot of things, I came across this yesterday on the web,http://news.hotproperty.co.uk/Brits_...y_investment_1... thought you might be interested, I think that this shows some of the problem, people will only believe what they want to believe and when they see an opportunity to make some "easy" money, common sense is the first bird to fly south.

Douglas M

Hi Tony P,

Thanks for the feedback, greed is the common denominator in all of these situations.

The primeval instincts of fear of loss and the need to gain manifest themselves in almost everything we feel, think and do.

Not only does this apply to things and territory but relationships too.

Thanks again for the input

douglas

Douglas M

Hi all,

Just to dampen hings down here, widen our horizons a little (and to give you another reason not to invest in goa, or anywhere else for that matter) go over to www.sirchartsalot.com , find the archives section and click on "Axis of Oil".

You will find a great article on oil, the dollar , the demise of the dollar, the role of petrodollars and the fragility of the whole political and financial system.

douglas

Rosemarywright

Hi Douglas
I like many others I have contacted on this website have not tried to buy a property in Goa through greed or to make "easy" money.

Is this why you wanted to invest their ?

leavinggoa

This is also true of me Rosemary, but I have also met many people out here who think they are making easy money.

Douglas M

Hi Rosemary,

Nice to hear from you, i read your previous post of april 19th and i was encouraged by your thought process in the second part.

Firstly, i would like to expand on the answer i gave to Tony P, which appears to be the source of your irritation.

The website Tony referred us to has a section entitled India offers strong investment potentiial in that section a Hena Kishore states that "the Indian property market was completely safe, posing no problems for the overseas investor", she then goes on to explain that when you need to borrow money to make the investment its best to source it in uk rather than India.

So this proposal offers strong investment potential, its completely safe and you can borrow money to invest if you cant afford it.These are classic symptoms of a bubble market and a high risk investment proposal. Hence my general comments on fear and greed, which were designed to help everyone to look within themselves, not to cause further irritation.

Moving on to your specific points now, last para first. If you really knew douglas you would know that he was one of the least greedy people on this earth, i am much more intersted in achieving a balance between mind , body and spirit, than owning things.

My house in goa was my only home, i have never had a second home and dont consider property to be a desirable investment. When i do invest, i go for liquid investments that are traded on exchanges.I am also a retired professional investor and have an investment process that identifies and overides greed.

Furthermore, i dont believe you can make money "easily," making money ( and keeping it) is a test of intellect and character, few people have those qualities in the right combination.

Back to your first para now and you are not going to like this one.
Nobody needs a second home, in goa or anywhere else. There has to be a strong element of greed in any such purchases, concious or otherwise.

In the first para of your 19th april you state that you "bought" your property over the internet and admitted that it was risky.

To adopt that method to buy what appears to be a second home and then not admit to fear and greed within, is like regularly drinking scotch at 10 am and claiming to be a social drinker.

Please do not take further offence, i am genuinely trying to help you all understand yourselves and the on going situation in goa. The longer anyone remains in denial, the greater the cost, both emotionaly and financialy.

Finally,I have just also read your profile and realised you are from Sheffield, my previous references to that fine city were coincidental, as was the use of the name Mary in the tile sketch.

Kind regards

douglas

TONY P

Sorry Douglas I didn't mean that article , though it's just as bad, if you go on the link and then into the Property News categories, click on Overseas Property and then find article titled 'Brits going to Goa for solid property investment'.
In this article it states that " Although legislation allowing foreign investors to buy in the country without local partners has recently been changed by the Indian Government, Mr Calvert said this had not made a huge impact on sales in the country so far. However he did predict this would change in the not-too-distant future."
I don't know what changes to the legislation he is referring to or if his prediction of change refers to legislation or the impact on sales, he also says that Goa is a cheap holiday destination 'true' and it's getting cheaper all the time 'Untrue'. Goa has definitely become more expensive and will continue to do so, especially land and property prices.
My main concern about these articles and others like them, supposedly by experts is that they are purely a sales hook and completely ignore/avoid the facts about the situation with regard to buying/owning property in foreign countries, visa requirements, registration of ownership etc and the ordinary person trusts/believes what they say.
We were in Goa Feb/March this year and came across several couples who were "Buying" a property, one even did it on his plastic because his bank wouldn't transfer the funds into the various accounts/countries that the vendor requested . I asked if he had residency, no, had he an x type visa, no, was he buying it as part of a company, I don't understand what your talking about was the reply. The Indian guy behind the bar did, he told me later that he sees it all the time, but doesn't say anything because most people are too excited and don't want to listen.
So now I try and keep quiet whenever the subject rears it's head, but I do appreciate the efforts of others to inform and guide, I hope it all turns out well for everybody.and nobody gets burnt.
That's it, back in the trench.

Douglas M

Hi Tony P,,

Thanks for the direction, ive found the link now and the quote you outlined above.

Interesting as you say where the spokesman refers to the recent change in legislation, when FEMA and the general permission have been around since 1999?

I also take your point about the sales hook. Sales and marketing men understand fear and greed ( in their clients i mean) better than most.

The thing i also find fascinating (as you also outlined ) is peoples enthusiasm for taking on board investment advice from developers. In my book thats rather like taking home security advice from a burglar.( active i mean not reformed)

However,there are some positive signs emerging on the communication front, there are some cross references to and from india mike and this site and a new thread on x visas on IM seems to be confirming douglass theory on the permanance of the exclusions.

Regarding your recent trip to goa and your bar experience, for every one we help there will be many others who fall into the flames, thats the way of markets and the human condition. We all have to accept that and douglas really hasnt that much more to say on the subject anyway, we just need some more comprehension and understanding from the existing and potential investors.

Also Ftse and other stockmarkets are approaching a tipping point so douglas needs to re focus and get back to work. So i might just take a leaf out of your book and keep quite for a while.

regards to all

bluesman

Ita A Shame.Only yesterday i met someone whose just purchased a property in Goa for£50,000.Informed them about non renewal of 5yr lease.Foreigners CANT LEGALY OWN/SELL on etc.In disbelief i told him to view this website.READ it YOURSELF etc.He phoned me and now hes speechless and £50000less!!!!!CRUEL to be KIND.BLUESMAN.

TONY P

One final story from the trench, this is absolutely true and has even been toned down due to the early evening watershed.
I overheard a conversation in a taxi, between the driver and his friend, it went something like this:
1)"It isn't right, they shouldn't be allowed to get away with it."
2)"Yes they come here and take jobs and buy property, the government should do something about it."
1)"Yes and we can't go and live and work there, or buy a shop or a house it isn't right and it isn't fair."
2)"They should be sent home, I agree with you."
By this time I was fit to bust, what and who were they talking about, I had to ask (serves me right) "Excuse me, can I ask what this is all about"
"Yes" said my driver, "we will tell you and then you will see how unfair the situation is."

So they told me their tale of woe and all about the unfairness of the situation and knowing what I know, I had to agree with them, even to the point of saying 'now you know how I feel'. sorry I meant "I know how you feel"


Sorry! you want to know what this is all about, well I was sat in a taxi in Goa (After coming from my accountants as I was trying to set up a business, a proper working business I hasten to add) listening to a conversation between 2 Goans talking about the Kashmiris in Goa (Inward sigh of relief), apparently only Kashmiris can own or buy property in Kashmir. the strange part is that I had a long conversation one night with a Kashmiri jeweller and mentioned this conversation to him, his reply..........sorry time to get back in the trench.
I can feel the snipers lining up.

Rosemarywright

Hi Douglas
It could also be said that if you knew me you would also Know that I am one of the least greedy people on earth.

I just feel that there seems to be quite a lot of double standards. True no one needs a second home, but a presume you lived somewhere before Goa and possibly made a profit from selling and moving.

I didn`t want to live in Goa my family is here in the Uk, but in years to come I`d hoped that we might be able to retire a little earlier to spend some much earned time together. We first visited Goa for our honeymoon loved the place, and at the time we purchased thought we had ticked all the boxes.True we took a risk but one we felt was worth taking not knowing what we now do.

Anyway on the social drinking side of things I suppose it all depends where your living as to the appropriate time for a Scotch or milky coffee whichever takes your fancy, and thank you for your last paragraph as I was getting rather paranoid.
Rose

old man

Hi Douglas,
I have just come across and thread on Indiamike (301) with regard to the inquiries from Directorate of Enforcement.
What are your comments on this?

TONY P

Hi sorry to appear very dim but I can't find the thread, could you supply more details of where it is or set up a link

Douglas M

Hi Old Man and welcome to the thread.

Firstly i feel we should all thank Noni for posting this personal document on IM for our benefit.

In order to provide some background fror newbies, we need to go back to around may 06 when the national youth congress, (under the provisions of the then new right to information act), obtained information from the registrar about purchases of immovable property by foreigners in goa.

Based on this information,the NYC then alleged that hundreds of foreigners had breached FEMA rules by purchasing immovable property without regard to residency, inward remittance of purchase monies and purpose and intention to stay.These are the three areas that FNs need to comply with under the FEMA general permission.

From a quick scan of the letter from the enforcement dept, they are simply asking for confirmation of these three points and at first sight, I can see little wrong with their request. I am presuming that this info was not provided at outset by Noni and they are not simply asking for the info twice.

The practice adopted by registrars used to be, pre august 06, to get the FN to sign an affidavit stating that they had complied with FEMA at the point of registration. If a FN signs it and hasn't complied, then they may have a problem.

When I regisrered my property at the Panjim office, I provided a copy of my passport, copy of title deeds, copy of residents permit etc. I dont recall providing bank acc details though.

There is an interesting article written by pv Sardessai (which I have copied below), a previous incumbent of the post of registrar, that quite clearly states that registrars are not required to check to see if FEMA has been complied with, at the point of registration. It also states that they have an obligation to register the property.

The onus is then quite clearly on the FN to ensure that they have complied, not the registrar.

Having said that,developers and lawyers were and still are, misinforming FNs
about the whole process. If they didn't misinform, common sense tells me that no FN in their right mind would behave the way they have done and still are doing. But maybe its not douglas that needs the common sense!

I hope this answers your question Old Man, if not get back to me.
Douglas



Comments On News Reports

PURCHASE OF LANDED PROPERTIES IN GOA BY FOREIGNERS - A FACTUAL POSITION OF LAW- SUGGESTIONS- by P.V.S. Sardessai

Sirs,
The current discussion in the media on the topic of purchase of properties in Goa by foreigners appears not to be emphasizing on the main issue i.e. the enforcing measures that are to be taken:-

(a) for ensuring that the already existing laws like the Foreign Exchange Management Act, 1999 read with the Foreign Exchange Management (Acquisition and Transfer of Immovable Property in India) Regulations, 2000 are enforced in the right spirit by the authorities under those statutes or by the Home Department and

(b) Empowering other Public Officers like (i) the Sub-Registrars appointed under the Registration Act, 1908 to withhold the registration of such documents till the proper authorities under the FEMA or the Home Department etc. issue a Clearance or No Objection Certificate for the registration of such documents of foreigners or on (ii) the authorities subsequently mutating the properties in the name of the foreigners.

It is hoped that in today’s discussions, these points would be touched.

Based on my personal experiences before retirement as the Goa State level Officer in the Registration Department, I am attaching hereto some annexures to help in getting a clear and actual picture on the aspect of the registration of documents of foreigners. The same are on the following specific topics:-

Annexure A ---- The Nature of the RegistrationProcess.
Annexure B ---- The FEMA vis a vis The Registration Act.
Annexure C ---- Some Gaps in the Implementation Machinery.
Annexure D ---- Suggested Line of Approach.

Sd/-
(Adv P.V.S. Sardessai)
Retired State Registrar of Goa.
Ph: 6514039 (m) 9923498460


ANNEXURE – A

A] ---- THE NATURE OF THE REGISTRATION PROCESS:-

1) ----- It is a well settled position in law, buttressed by uniform judicial decisions, that the Sub-Registrars appointed under the Registration Act 1908 have little discretion under that Statute of Parliament to refuse registration to documents presented for registration, when such documents happen to meet all the prescriptions under the said Act and the requirements under any other law which “has been definitely made supplemental to the Registration Act”. Section 35 of the said Act using the word ‘shall’ is also very specific ad categorical about this aspect. Moreover, Rule 40 of the G.D.D. Registration Rules 1965 further emphasizes this position when it opens up with the following words: “ (1) Before accepting any document for registration, a registering officer may not concern himself with its validity, but shall ascertain …. “ etc.

2) ---- The supplemental laws mentioned above usually are in the format of a non obstante (notwithstanding) clause in the later Act, expressly providing that ‘notwithstanding anything in the Registration Act 1908, no Registering Officer appointed under that Act shall register a document unless’ some condition is satisfied.

----- Such prescriptions are normally enacted in the concerned subsequent Acts directing the Registering Officers appointed under the said Registration Act in the following manner:-

- (i) ‘not to register’ till some N.O.C. or Clearance certificate from a prescribed authority is furnished. In such cases, there is no prohibition against accepting a document validly presented for registration. In such cases the Registering Officer has to accept the document presented for registration and proceed with all the registration formalities under the Act short of ordering the same for registration. The document will be kept pending till the parties remove the express impediment mentioned in the supplemental law. Some examples are : A tax clearance certificate under Sec 230-A of the Income –tax Act 1961 (now omitted) or N.O.C. under sec 49(6) of the G.D.D. Town & Country Planning Act 1974. As and when such impediment is removed, the document is necessarily to be registered without any unreasonable delay as laid down in the statutory rules.

- (ii) Another type of such restraining condition is to direct that till the prior requirement is met, the document shall ‘not be accepted for registration’. In such cases the Registering Officer cannot take up any part of the registration procedure at all, including the acceptance of a presented document. Such provisions being of a more fundamental and drastic nature, they are usually embodied in the Rules or in the Act itself, some examples being: the direction to refuse to accept where a document is not accompanied by its True Copy under the 1986 Amendment to the Registration Rules, or as in the Maharashtra State, the supporting documents like clearances etc, are to necessarily accompany the documents at the time of the presentation itself and not later, so that documents are not kept pending in office indefinitely till the parties comply. (This has also relevance to the computerization of registration procedure which incidentally is going to be shortly introduced in Goa too).

--- 3) --- The registering officers are quasi judicial authorities, all the proceedings before them being declared under sec 84 (3) of the said Act as “judicial proceedings” for purpose of sec 228 of he Indian Penal Code i.e. in cases of interruption (obviously without authority of some statutory provision) and insult. The officers are also statutorily required to give promptly and free of cost, copies of their orders of refusal to the affected parties, clearly and expressly mentioning therein the legal grounds and he reasons for their refusals which could in turn be challenged by the interested parties in an appeal and thereafter, if the refusal is upheld, by filing a suit in a Civil Court. It follows that the Sub-Registrars cannot refuse registration at the request or whimsical directions of others when such directions are not founded on any express statutory powers authorizing the interruption of the registration procedure.

-4) ---- It is also a well settled position in law that “ it is no part of the duty of a Registering Officer to embark on any inquiry into the legality of a document or to consider extraneous issues like: whether the document is hit by some other law, or about the truth or falsity of any recital in the deed, the fact of payment of consideration or similar issues, while accepting a document for registration” He is not even expected to read out the document to the parties before recording their admission of execution. The statutory procedure for registration is formal and rigid and the inquiry by the registering officers is restricted to the matters prescribed within the four corners of the Act as well as in the provisions of any other law ‘made expressly supplemental to the Registration Act’. The prime object of registration is to authenticate and record documents and make available certified copies therefrom for evidentiary purposes. A Registering Officer acting outside the scope of his statutory duties by refusing documents without statutory authority would be opening himself for challenges in Court and also for possible allegations of malafides or ulterior motives.


ANNEXURE –B

----B] THE FOREIGN EXCHANGE MANAGEMENT ACT & REGISTRATION

At the outset itself, it is to be made clear that the FEMA contains no restricting provisions restraining registration of documents of foreigners. So also, none of its provisions is seen to have been made ‘expressly supplemental to the Registration Act 1908, to refuse or delay the registration of the documents of foreigners. Such an act would be ultra vires his statutory mandate. Also, the present article writer, after the news reports, carried on inquiries with the Registration Department and learns that as on the date of this article, no written instructions have been issued by the Govt, or by other statutory authorities to the registering officers not to register property documents of the foreigners as mentioned in some articles or that any disciplinary action was contemplated in this matter for alleged breach of any rules by these officers while registering documents of foreigners. In fact, it is doubtful whether any action could be legally taken in the matter, when no statutory prescriptions under the law, as it stand at present, were breached.


ANNEXURE – C

C --- SOME GAPS IN THE IMPLEMENTATION MACHINERY

I had been privy to some developments in the matter while in service and mention hereunder some events/facts as they actually occurred:-

1) – In November 1998, the Goa Govt., under information from the Govt. of India, Ministry of Finance (Department of Economics Affairs) New Delhi, issued instructions to the Sub-Registrars to insist on the permission of the Reserve Bank of India while registering acquisition of property documents by foreigners on short tourist visas. These instructions were issued in view of Section 31 (1) of Foreign Exchange Regulation Act 1973. This was also given wide publicity in the offices of the Sub-Registrars. These instruction were logically in force till the said FERA was repealed by Sec 49 of the Foreign Exchange Management Act, 1999 which liberalized and made clear the rules in respect of the purchase and transfer of properties by foreigners.

2) --- However, a practical difficulty arose in that the R.B.I. would not issue any permission in writing in individual cases of sale deeds on the grounds that ‘eligibility or residential status of individuals is not decided by RBI but by the operation of law i.e. the provisions contained under FEMA, 1999’ The RBI issued replying letters against the applications by foreigners mentioning only the legal position viz. that a foreigner could buy property if he met the conditions laid down in section 2(v)(i)B of the FEMA i.e. if he were a ‘resident’ within the meaning of that section. The issue about the actual control and verification of the averments by foreigners, in keeping with the spirit of the Govt. of India instructions continued to remain in suspended animation.

3) ---- A strange fall out of this state of affairs was that the sale deeds and other property documents of foreigners started remaining pending in the offices indefinitely, the Sub-Registrars hesitating to register the same in view of the spirit of the November 1998 instructions of the Govt. issued under the repealed FERA and also being unable to refuse or indefinitely hold back the registration in view of the clear mandatory statutory provisions of the Registration laws. Under the existing laws, the Registering Officers do not happen to be the inquiring/adjudicating authorities under section 13 of the FEMA in respect of the Foreign Exchange issues. After studying the matter from the legal angle, a practical solution was chalked out which was in harmony with the requirements of the existing Registration laws as well as with those of the FEMA r.w. the Foreign Exchange Management (Acquisition and Transfer of Immovable Property in India) Regulations, 2000. This was done by way of instructing the Sub-Registrars to register the documents of foreigners after obtaining their affidavits declaring tht they fulfilled the conditions as to the requirement of residence as laid down in Section 2(v)(i)B of the FEMA. These instructions were also later approved by the RBI authorities.


ANNEXURE – D

---- D] SUGGESTED LINE OF APPROACH:

(1) The appropriate way to keep a watch and legal control on the illegal transactions by some unscrupulous foreigners, would be to enact a proper amendment (on the lines of the omitted section 230-A of the Income-tax Act 1961 or Sec. 49(6) of the G.D.D. Town & Country Planning Act 1974, by adding a non obstante clause to FEMA or to other relevant laws, requiring the Sub-Registrar appointed under the Registration Act, 1908, not to register the documents of foreigners till the concerned parties furnish a Clearance or a No Objection Certificate from some prescribed authority connected with the subject. Some authorities to be suggested would be : the ‘Adjudicating Authority under Sec. 13 of the FEMA’ or the Home Department. Merely issuing administrative instructions to the Sub-Registrars would not be desirable since the proceedings before these officers are quasi judicial in nature.

(2) Other public authorities like Mutation Officers also should be required to insist on a copy of such Clearance/N.O.C. while processing the mutation matter.

(3) Responsibility should be fixed on some Implementing Authority under the Foreign Exchange Regulations, like either “The Directorate of Enforcement” under Sec 36 of FEMA 1999 (or if deemed fit, on the Reserve Bank of India or on the Home Department of the Centre/State to issue such Clearances/N.O.C.s for the purpose of clearance of the foreigners’ transactions.


Sd/-
(P.V.S. Sardessai)
Retired State Registrar & Head of Notary Services.

LIFE LINE
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