GOA - Buyer Beware!
Jun 7th 2007, 9:00 pm
#167
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,685
Re: GOA - Buyer Beware!
Hi All
I have a question about this, if TDK has one of those leases that are convertable to freehold ownership on fulfilment of residency etc, then if it is sold to a PIO / NRI/ or Resident Indian who don't have to fulfill residency etc and allowing that the lease contains the correct otion agreement and is transferrable, then they could convert the ownership without any problems and TDK is therefore selling that option which must make the lease worth a lot more than if it was sold to an FN. Possibly, maybe, potentially, just something that crossed my mind.
regards
Tony
I have a question about this, if TDK has one of those leases that are convertable to freehold ownership on fulfilment of residency etc, then if it is sold to a PIO / NRI/ or Resident Indian who don't have to fulfill residency etc and allowing that the lease contains the correct otion agreement and is transferrable, then they could convert the ownership without any problems and TDK is therefore selling that option which must make the lease worth a lot more than if it was sold to an FN. Possibly, maybe, potentially, just something that crossed my mind.
regards
Tony
WOOSSHHH, this is all starting to go way over my head!!!
The more i think i know combined with what i know i dont know is doing my head in. I think we expats should take over Fort Aquada, dig in, lock and load, hoist the flag and 'Remember the Alamo' oh and make sure we have a good supply of Kingfisher.
Cheers,
Remy
Jun 7th 2007, 9:04 pm
#168
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Re: GOA - Buyer Beware!
there are a number of ways of tranfering immovable property (rolling leases, power of attorney + will in favour of transferee, etc.) that used to be popular in India because they avoided Stamp Duty (4% - which is steep), but for at least the last 3 years the law has changed to require 90% of the due stamp duty to be paid in such cases - making them redundant.
Sadly (very sadly) the same Act removed the option to Register deeds &c. in Delhi (or any 'presidency town') instead of at the local sub-registrar.
Sadly (very sadly) the same Act removed the option to Register deeds &c. in Delhi (or any 'presidency town') instead of at the local sub-registrar.
Jun 7th 2007, 9:39 pm
#169
Joined: May 2007
Location: Noni the Indian Goan Beach Mulberry
Posts: 8,227
Re: GOA - Buyer Beware!
Hi noni,
A will is a worldwide document, so if you already have one written in uk, it can cover assets held elsewhere.
As i undestand it, under goan/ portugese law you cannot disinherit your children, so that part of the will, if such a clause existed, would be invalid in goa.
Anything else should stand, i dont know if its a good idea to have a separate will written in goa as it may confuse the issue, if different from your uk one ( if you already have a uk one, which everybody should
To everybody, If you havnt already made a will , make one.
if your uk domiciled and your combined estate is higher in value than the nil rate band for iht and you are married, consider including a discretionary trust in the will in order to utilise two nil rate bands rather than one. Thus saving £100k + in iht.
If you take this discretionary will trust route, ensure that you equalise your estates and any assets held as joint benificial owners are now held as tenants in common, otherwise it wont work .
If any reader checks this out with a decent uk lawyer and find it is applicable to you, please pay a minimum of £100 to your favourite charity , as i would have charged you more than that for the same advice had i still been in practice.
regards
douglas
A will is a worldwide document, so if you already have one written in uk, it can cover assets held elsewhere.
As i undestand it, under goan/ portugese law you cannot disinherit your children, so that part of the will, if such a clause existed, would be invalid in goa.
Anything else should stand, i dont know if its a good idea to have a separate will written in goa as it may confuse the issue, if different from your uk one ( if you already have a uk one, which everybody should
To everybody, If you havnt already made a will , make one.
if your uk domiciled and your combined estate is higher in value than the nil rate band for iht and you are married, consider including a discretionary trust in the will in order to utilise two nil rate bands rather than one. Thus saving £100k + in iht.
If you take this discretionary will trust route, ensure that you equalise your estates and any assets held as joint benificial owners are now held as tenants in common, otherwise it wont work .
If any reader checks this out with a decent uk lawyer and find it is applicable to you, please pay a minimum of £100 to your favourite charity , as i would have charged you more than that for the same advice had i still been in practice.
regards
douglas
Hi Douglas,
This is the third time I have posted this reply to you. :curse::curse::curse:
We have already done the things you said, But were advised by an Advocate to make a Goan Will I expect he was short of 8500 rups.
Anyway thanks.
Noni
Jun 7th 2007, 9:44 pm
#170
Joined: May 2007
Location: Noni the Indian Goan Beach Mulberry
Posts: 8,227
Re: GOA - Buyer Beware!
Hi Remy,Not only that, it gets better. Two seasons ago they stopped people coming in on Charter and throwing their tickets away - if you turned up at the airport and they checked your passport and you had stayed for the season, you were called into the back room and shall be say asked to donate to them around £40.
This year you were being fined even if you were not over weight on your return - must keep the wonga coming in.
Noni
Jun 7th 2007, 10:14 pm
#171
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,685
Re: GOA - Buyer Beware!
Hi Remy,Not only that, it gets better. Two seasons ago they stopped people coming in on Charter and throwing their tickets away - if you turned up at the airport and they checked your passport and you had stayed for the season, you were called into the back room and shall be say asked to donate to them around £40.
This year you were being fined even if you were not over weight on your return - must keep the wonga coming in.
Noni
Bloody Hell,
At least Dick Turpin wore a mask.
Remy
Jun 8th 2007, 8:12 am
#173
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Joined: Nov 2006
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Re: GOA - Buyer Beware!
Hi Tony,
WOOSSHHH, this is all starting to go way over my head!!!
The more i think i know combined with what i know i dont know is doing my head in. I think we expats should take over Fort Aquada, dig in, lock and load, hoist the flag and 'Remember the Alamo' oh and make sure we have a good supply of Kingfisher.
Cheers,
Remy
WOOSSHHH, this is all starting to go way over my head!!!
The more i think i know combined with what i know i dont know is doing my head in. I think we expats should take over Fort Aquada, dig in, lock and load, hoist the flag and 'Remember the Alamo' oh and make sure we have a good supply of Kingfisher.
Cheers,
Remy
Mine too, I just begin to feel that I'm getting a handle on things then I think of something else and have to rethink the whole thing, fortunately for me it is only a mental exercise, we have decided to lease/rent or just not bother
Regards
TP
Jun 8th 2007, 8:41 am
#174
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 868
Re: GOA - Buyer Beware!
Hi Tony,
WOOSSHHH, this is all starting to go way over my head!!!
The more i think i know combined with what i know i dont know is doing my head in. I think we expats should take over Fort Aquada, dig in, lock and load, hoist the flag and 'Remember the Alamo' oh and make sure we have a good supply of Kingfisher.
Cheers,
Remy
WOOSSHHH, this is all starting to go way over my head!!!
The more i think i know combined with what i know i dont know is doing my head in. I think we expats should take over Fort Aquada, dig in, lock and load, hoist the flag and 'Remember the Alamo' oh and make sure we have a good supply of Kingfisher.
Cheers,
Remy
I feel like that too. But Fort Aguada? No way, let's take over a posh Hotel and do it in comfort.regards
TP
Jun 8th 2007, 9:28 am
#175
Joined: May 2007
Location: Noni the Indian Goan Beach Mulberry
Posts: 8,227
Re: GOA - Buyer Beware!
You have all got to bother! Goa is in our blood, just rent and enjoy.
Jun 8th 2007, 9:49 am
#176
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Re: GOA - Buyer Beware!
Looks good on the estate planning bit then.
Isnt 8500 about two months wages for a school teacher in goa?
kiind regards
douglas
Jun 8th 2007, 10:53 am
#177
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Re: GOA - Buyer Beware!
I have been browsing and found a very good page http://www.goanvoice.org.uk/
look at 4th June, according to the Economic Times of Mumbai, no FNs have purchased any property, it is all out of state Indians, NRIs, PIOs, or from within Goa. Lots of other interesting stories as well.
Regards
Tony
look at 4th June, according to the Economic Times of Mumbai, no FNs have purchased any property, it is all out of state Indians, NRIs, PIOs, or from within Goa. Lots of other interesting stories as well.
Regards
Tony
Jun 8th 2007, 2:07 pm
#178
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Location: On the yellow brick road between UK - India
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Re: GOA - Buyer Beware!
Hi TDK,
Thats a lot of stuff.
From the info you have provided it would seem that if the freeholder signs the agreement you have outlined, you should be able to sell what is left of the five year lease. At the end of the five years it would be at the discretion of the freeholder if he renews it in the name of the new lease holder.
You havnt got a perpetual lease, just max five years.
Nobody inherits the right to exercise the option to buy, that would die with the expiry of the five year lease/option agreement. Does the agreement even say you have the right to transfer the option to buy, i suspect it is just the right to transfer the lease.
Only the freeholder can offer the right to buy option and he may or may not chose to renew it with the new leaseholder.
The sales agreement you signed at outset is invalid if you were not resident at the time and you are a FN.
A five year lease is worth about one twentieth of the freehold price, as a rough guide.
I presume thefreeholder has not yet signed this agreement and you therefore have no connection to the property.
regards
douglas
Thats a lot of stuff.
From the info you have provided it would seem that if the freeholder signs the agreement you have outlined, you should be able to sell what is left of the five year lease. At the end of the five years it would be at the discretion of the freeholder if he renews it in the name of the new lease holder.
You havnt got a perpetual lease, just max five years.
Nobody inherits the right to exercise the option to buy, that would die with the expiry of the five year lease/option agreement. Does the agreement even say you have the right to transfer the option to buy, i suspect it is just the right to transfer the lease.
Only the freeholder can offer the right to buy option and he may or may not chose to renew it with the new leaseholder.
The sales agreement you signed at outset is invalid if you were not resident at the time and you are a FN.
A five year lease is worth about one twentieth of the freehold price, as a rough guide.
I presume thefreeholder has not yet signed this agreement and you therefore have no connection to the property.
regards
douglas
Also just to clarify, i haven't yet signed/registered a Lease for my property, but as i mentioned i have a draft Lease which i instructed my lawyer to draw up and i intend to edit in any additional clauses in addition to those already discussed, so assuming that the developer agrees to sign this lease, then surely if that lease includes a stipulation that it is on a rolling 5 year basis ad-infinitum (say with a set nominal Rs1000 renewal fee), and that both my self and anyone i choose to sell onto has the full right to obtain the freehold at no extra charge; then as a legal document, i can't see why, once signed by all parties that this wouldn't stand(?) & as Tony said it would be like selling on an Option (for an NRI/PIO to aquire the freehold) when i decided to sell (which as Tony pointed out can be quite profitable in a rising market).
Anyway like Remy i find all this stuff a bit mystifying, and whilst i take on board what you've said about people deluding themselves, which may be i am, but to me atleast my points seem logical (not that that counts for much in Mother India)!
Well Thanks again for your thoughts and all the Best - TDK
Jun 8th 2007, 2:09 pm
#179
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Joined: Jun 2007
Location: On the yellow brick road between UK - India
Posts: 406
Re: GOA - Buyer Beware!
I have been browsing and found a very good page http://www.goanvoice.org.uk/
look at 4th June, according to the Economic Times of Mumbai, no FNs have purchased any property, it is all out of state Indians, NRIs, PIOs, or from within Goa. Lots of other interesting stories as well.
Regards
Tony
look at 4th June, according to the Economic Times of Mumbai, no FNs have purchased any property, it is all out of state Indians, NRIs, PIOs, or from within Goa. Lots of other interesting stories as well.
Regards
Tony
Cheers, TDK
Jun 8th 2007, 2:49 pm
#180
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Re: GOA - Buyer Beware!
Many thanks for your thoughts Douglas and in answer to your question, yes i did have residential status when i 1st reserved the appartment as i was on a 1 year visa and had registered within 2 weeks of arrival and before departure at the FRO.
Also just to clarify, i haven't yet signed/registered a Lease for my property, but as i mentioned i have a draft Lease which i instructed my lawyer to draw up and i intend to edit in any additional clauses in addition to those already discussed, so assuming that the developer agrees to sign this lease, then surely if that lease includes a stipulation that it is on a rolling 5 year basis ad-infinitum (say with a set nominal Rs1000 renewal fee), and that both my self and anyone i choose to sell onto has the full right to obtain the freehold at no extra charge; then as a legal document, i can't see why, once signed by all parties that this wouldn't stand(?) & as Tony said it would be like selling on an Option (for an NRI/PIO to aquire the freehold) when i decided to sell (which as Tony pointed out can be quite profitable in a rising market).
Anyway like Remy i find all this stuff a bit mystifying, and whilst i take on board what you've said about people deluding themselves, which may be i am, but to me atleast my points seem logical (not that that counts for much in Mother India)!
Well Thanks again for your thoughts and all the Best - TDK
Also just to clarify, i haven't yet signed/registered a Lease for my property, but as i mentioned i have a draft Lease which i instructed my lawyer to draw up and i intend to edit in any additional clauses in addition to those already discussed, so assuming that the developer agrees to sign this lease, then surely if that lease includes a stipulation that it is on a rolling 5 year basis ad-infinitum (say with a set nominal Rs1000 renewal fee), and that both my self and anyone i choose to sell onto has the full right to obtain the freehold at no extra charge; then as a legal document, i can't see why, once signed by all parties that this wouldn't stand(?) & as Tony said it would be like selling on an Option (for an NRI/PIO to aquire the freehold) when i decided to sell (which as Tony pointed out can be quite profitable in a rising market).
Anyway like Remy i find all this stuff a bit mystifying, and whilst i take on board what you've said about people deluding themselves, which may be i am, but to me atleast my points seem logical (not that that counts for much in Mother India)!
Well Thanks again for your thoughts and all the Best - TDK
When you reserved the apartment, what did you sign? If you signed a sales agreement and you were resident at the time, then the transfer is a legal transaction according to FEMA.
However as the legal system is dysfunctional, it is advisable to also register the freehold, which in practice you no longer can do. I would not buy an unregistered freehold.
If you signed anything other than a sales agreement, everything i have said previously stands.
The lease cannot be rolling in a perpetual sense, it has to end at max year 5 and the freeholder may or may not renew it. Any clause in the agreement which gives you or anyone else the right to renew (desirable as you may think it is) will contravine statute and is probably invalid in my opinion.
Like i said , the lessee cant offer an option to buy, only the freeholder can.
regards
douglas