Go Back  British Expats > Living & Moving Abroad > Europe > Germany
Reload this Page >

Nationality question

Nationality question

Old Aug 24th 2020, 7:14 am
  #1  
dmu
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Thread Starter
 
Joined: Apr 2008
Location: Hérault (34)
Posts: 8,680
dmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond repute
Default Nationality question

Has any one been in the position of being a non-German couple, both dual-nationality, resident in Germany and with a child born in Germany? AFAIK the child is automatically a German citizen by Geburtsortprinzip (jus soli), but how many other nationalities can he/she take? In the case in question, 4 possible nationalities (EU/non-EU) since the mother's UK rights can't be passed down to her child. Could the child be German by jus soli, French by their mother, and EU and US by their father?
My daughter is enquiring officially on the spot about this scenario, but I'd be interested to find out what others have experienced.
TIA
dmu is offline  
Old Aug 24th 2020, 7:37 am
  #2  
Lost in BE Cyberspace
 
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 5,156
Moses2013 has a reputation beyond reputeMoses2013 has a reputation beyond reputeMoses2013 has a reputation beyond reputeMoses2013 has a reputation beyond reputeMoses2013 has a reputation beyond reputeMoses2013 has a reputation beyond reputeMoses2013 has a reputation beyond reputeMoses2013 has a reputation beyond reputeMoses2013 has a reputation beyond reputeMoses2013 has a reputation beyond reputeMoses2013 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Nationality question

Originally Posted by dmu View Post
Has any one been in the position of being a non-German couple, both dual-nationality, resident in Germany and with a child born in Germany? AFAIK the child is automatically a German citizen by Geburtsortprinzip (jus soli), but how many other nationalities can he/she take? In the case in question, 4 possible nationalities (EU/non-EU) since the mother's UK rights can't be passed down to her child. Could the child be German by jus soli, French by their mother, and EU and US by their father?
My daughter is enquiring officially on the spot about this scenario, but I'd be interested to find out what others have experienced.
TIA
The answer is yes and 4 possible nationalities is possible but the State usually wants to avoid Mehrstaatigkeit ​​​​​. In Germany you'll be seen as German and could lose your nationality in another country. It's down to the country to decide.

Wie viele Staatsbürgerschaften kann man in Deutschland haben?

Menschen in Deutschland können mehrere Staatsbürgerschaften haben. Meistens hört man nur von der doppelten Staatsbürgerschaft. Zahlenmäßig etwas offener heißt das Konzept Mehrstaatigkeit, auch in Deutschland, denn: "Eine maximale Zahl von Staatsangehörigkeiten gibt es nicht", schreibt der BMI-Sprecher. Diese Mehrstaatigkeit will der deutsche Staat jedoch grundsätzlich vermeiden.


Jeder Staat regelt nach den allgemeinen Grundsätzen des Völkerrechts und in dessen Grenzen selbst, wer seine Staatsangehörigen sind und ob und unter welchen Voraussetzungen seine Staatsangehörigkeit erworben wird oder verloren geht.

Aufgrund der nicht einheitlichen Regelungen in den einzelnen Staaten kann ein Mensch zwei oder mehrere (Doppelstaater, Mehrstaater) oder auch keine Staatsangehörigkeit (sog. Staatenloser) besitzen. In Deutschland gilt grundsätzlich das Prinzip der Vermeidung von Mehrstaatigkeit, ausgenommen sind aber insbesondere Staatsangehörige der anderen EU-Mitgliedstaaten sowie der Schweiz.

Alle deutschen Staatsangehörigen sind automatisch auch Angehörige der Europäischen Union. Die deutsche Staatsangehörigkeit ist in Art. 116 Grundgesetz und dem Staatsangehörigkeitsgesetz (StAG) geregelt. Sie wird durch Art 16 GG besonders geschützt.
Moses2013 is offline  
Old Aug 24th 2020, 8:11 am
  #3  
dmu
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Thread Starter
 
Joined: Apr 2008
Location: Hérault (34)
Posts: 8,680
dmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Nationality question

Originally Posted by Moses2013 View Post
The answer is yes and 4 possible nationalities is possible but the State usually wants to avoid Mehrstaatigkeit ​​​​​. In Germany you'll be seen as German and could lose your nationality in another country. It's down to the country to decide.

Wie viele Staatsbürgerschaften kann man in Deutschland haben?

Menschen in Deutschland können mehrere Staatsbürgerschaften haben. Meistens hört man nur von der doppelten Staatsbürgerschaft. Zahlenmäßig etwas offener heißt das Konzept Mehrstaatigkeit, auch in Deutschland, denn: "Eine maximale Zahl von Staatsangehörigkeiten gibt es nicht", schreibt der BMI-Sprecher. Diese Mehrstaatigkeit will der deutsche Staat jedoch grundsätzlich vermeiden.


Jeder Staat regelt nach den allgemeinen Grundsätzen des Völkerrechts und in dessen Grenzen selbst, wer seine Staatsangehörigen sind und ob und unter welchen Voraussetzungen seine Staatsangehörigkeit erworben wird oder verloren geht.

Aufgrund der nicht einheitlichen Regelungen in den einzelnen Staaten kann ein Mensch zwei oder mehrere (Doppelstaater, Mehrstaater) oder auch keine Staatsangehörigkeit (sog. Staatenloser) besitzen. In Deutschland gilt grundsätzlich das Prinzip der Vermeidung von Mehrstaatigkeit, ausgenommen sind aber insbesondere Staatsangehörige der anderen EU-Mitgliedstaaten sowie der Schweiz.

Alle deutschen Staatsangehörigen sind automatisch auch Angehörige der Europäischen Union. Die deutsche Staatsangehörigkeit ist in Art. 116 Grundgesetz und dem Staatsangehörigkeitsgesetz (StAG) geregelt. Sie wird durch Art 16 GG besonders geschützt.
Thank you for that!
Can you give the link to this text, please? (to save me looking for it...)
dmu is offline  
Old Aug 24th 2020, 8:17 am
  #4  
Lost in BE Cyberspace
 
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 5,156
Moses2013 has a reputation beyond reputeMoses2013 has a reputation beyond reputeMoses2013 has a reputation beyond reputeMoses2013 has a reputation beyond reputeMoses2013 has a reputation beyond reputeMoses2013 has a reputation beyond reputeMoses2013 has a reputation beyond reputeMoses2013 has a reputation beyond reputeMoses2013 has a reputation beyond reputeMoses2013 has a reputation beyond reputeMoses2013 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Nationality question

Originally Posted by dmu View Post
Thank you for that!
Can you give the link to this text, please? (to save me looking for it...)
Sorry

https://www.bmi.bund.de/DE/themen/ve...echt-node.html

This is an article about the topic
https://www.br.de/nachrichten/deutsc...-haben,Rl5jdoB
Moses2013 is offline  
Old Aug 24th 2020, 8:51 am
  #5  
dmu
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Thread Starter
 
Joined: Apr 2008
Location: Hérault (34)
Posts: 8,680
dmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Nationality question

Originally Posted by Moses2013 View Post
Thank you kindly, I'll retransmit them to DD.
dmu is offline  
Old Aug 27th 2020, 7:16 pm
  #6  
BE Enthusiast
 
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 723
OrangeMango has a reputation beyond reputeOrangeMango has a reputation beyond reputeOrangeMango has a reputation beyond reputeOrangeMango has a reputation beyond reputeOrangeMango has a reputation beyond reputeOrangeMango has a reputation beyond reputeOrangeMango has a reputation beyond reputeOrangeMango has a reputation beyond reputeOrangeMango has a reputation beyond reputeOrangeMango has a reputation beyond reputeOrangeMango has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Nationality question

Originally Posted by Moses2013 View Post
The answer is yes and 4 possible nationalities is possible but the State usually wants to avoid Mehrstaatigkeit ​​​​​. In Germany you'll be seen as German and could lose your nationality in another country. It's down to the country to decide.

Wie viele Staatsbürgerschaften kann man in Deutschland haben?

Menschen in Deutschland können mehrere Staatsbürgerschaften haben. Meistens hört man nur von der doppelten Staatsbürgerschaft. Zahlenmäßig etwas offener heißt das Konzept Mehrstaatigkeit, auch in Deutschland, denn: "Eine maximale Zahl von Staatsangehörigkeiten gibt es nicht", schreibt der BMI-Sprecher. Diese Mehrstaatigkeit will der deutsche Staat jedoch grundsätzlich vermeiden.


Jeder Staat regelt nach den allgemeinen Grundsätzen des Völkerrechts und in dessen Grenzen selbst, wer seine Staatsangehörigen sind und ob und unter welchen Voraussetzungen seine Staatsangehörigkeit erworben wird oder verloren geht.

Aufgrund der nicht einheitlichen Regelungen in den einzelnen Staaten kann ein Mensch zwei oder mehrere (Doppelstaater, Mehrstaater) oder auch keine Staatsangehörigkeit (sog. Staatenloser) besitzen. In Deutschland gilt grundsätzlich das Prinzip der Vermeidung von Mehrstaatigkeit, ausgenommen sind aber insbesondere Staatsangehörige der anderen EU-Mitgliedstaaten sowie der Schweiz.

Alle deutschen Staatsangehörigen sind automatisch auch Angehörige der Europäischen Union. Die deutsche Staatsangehörigkeit ist in Art. 116 Grundgesetz und dem Staatsangehörigkeitsgesetz (StAG) geregelt. Sie wird durch Art 16 GG besonders geschützt.
My German is not the greatest, but I did understand the article.

What I was wondering is the legal difference between "Vermeidung" und "Verboten". Judging by this article "Mehrstaatigkeit" is to be "vermeiden", but not explicitly "verboten" meaning that there might be possible exemptions to the rule. However, what would these exemptions be?

I know Germany that much that they are in general pretty clear about things being outright "verboten" and also using this expression without hesitation. So why are they using "vermeiden" in this context?
OrangeMango is online now  
Old Aug 27th 2020, 7:26 pm
  #7  
Lost in BE Cyberspace
 
Joined: Nov 2012
Location: bute
Posts: 9,740
scot47 has a reputation beyond reputescot47 has a reputation beyond reputescot47 has a reputation beyond reputescot47 has a reputation beyond reputescot47 has a reputation beyond reputescot47 has a reputation beyond reputescot47 has a reputation beyond reputescot47 has a reputation beyond reputescot47 has a reputation beyond reputescot47 has a reputation beyond reputescot47 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Nationality question

Vermeiden = avoid
scot47 is offline  
Old Aug 27th 2020, 8:16 pm
  #8  
BE Enthusiast
 
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 723
OrangeMango has a reputation beyond reputeOrangeMango has a reputation beyond reputeOrangeMango has a reputation beyond reputeOrangeMango has a reputation beyond reputeOrangeMango has a reputation beyond reputeOrangeMango has a reputation beyond reputeOrangeMango has a reputation beyond reputeOrangeMango has a reputation beyond reputeOrangeMango has a reputation beyond reputeOrangeMango has a reputation beyond reputeOrangeMango has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Nationality question

Originally Posted by scot47 View Post
Vermeiden = avoid
I know.

Avoiding vs forbidden.

So apparently multiple citizenships together with German citizenship are to be avoided, not forbidden or verboten. ( veeerboten)
OrangeMango is online now  
Old Aug 28th 2020, 6:35 am
  #9  
dmu
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Thread Starter
 
Joined: Apr 2008
Location: Hérault (34)
Posts: 8,680
dmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Nationality question

Originally Posted by OrangeMango View Post
I know.

Avoiding vs forbidden.

So apparently multiple citizenships together with German citizenship are to be avoided, not forbidden or verboten. ( veeerboten)
Don't forget "grundsätzlich", which doesn't help...
dmu is offline  
Old Aug 28th 2020, 9:59 am
  #10  
BE Enthusiast
 
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 723
OrangeMango has a reputation beyond reputeOrangeMango has a reputation beyond reputeOrangeMango has a reputation beyond reputeOrangeMango has a reputation beyond reputeOrangeMango has a reputation beyond reputeOrangeMango has a reputation beyond reputeOrangeMango has a reputation beyond reputeOrangeMango has a reputation beyond reputeOrangeMango has a reputation beyond reputeOrangeMango has a reputation beyond reputeOrangeMango has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Nationality question

Originally Posted by dmu View Post
Don't forget "grundsätzlich", which doesn't help...
In Germany there is, - apparently and to my knowledge:

"vermeiden" and "grundsaetzlich vermeiden" - to be avoided, and to be avoided right from the onset, but both of them don't mean, it's forbidden and both would indicate that there are possible exceptions.


Then there is:

"verboten", "streng verboten" and "strengstens verboten" - forbidden, strictly forbidden, and possibly most strictly forbidden.

All three of them mean that it's "not allowed", - without any sort of exceptions. The only difference between the three of them would probably be the severity of the punishment.

OrangeMango is online now  
Old Aug 29th 2020, 4:07 pm
  #11  
Lost in BE Cyberspace
 
Joined: Nov 2012
Location: bute
Posts: 9,740
scot47 has a reputation beyond reputescot47 has a reputation beyond reputescot47 has a reputation beyond reputescot47 has a reputation beyond reputescot47 has a reputation beyond reputescot47 has a reputation beyond reputescot47 has a reputation beyond reputescot47 has a reputation beyond reputescot47 has a reputation beyond reputescot47 has a reputation beyond reputescot47 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Nationality question

"Ordnung muss sein" There is a Germanic disposition to do as you are told !
scot47 is offline  
Old Aug 29th 2020, 4:42 pm
  #12  
BE Enthusiast
 
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 723
OrangeMango has a reputation beyond reputeOrangeMango has a reputation beyond reputeOrangeMango has a reputation beyond reputeOrangeMango has a reputation beyond reputeOrangeMango has a reputation beyond reputeOrangeMango has a reputation beyond reputeOrangeMango has a reputation beyond reputeOrangeMango has a reputation beyond reputeOrangeMango has a reputation beyond reputeOrangeMango has a reputation beyond reputeOrangeMango has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Nationality question

Originally Posted by scot47 View Post
"Ordnung muss sein" There is a Germanic disposition to do as you are told !
Some things are actually rather surprising about German nationality.

For instance the German passport is one of the most desired ones in the world, allowing more visa free travel than the British or the Canadian one.

Also the naturalization procedure in Germany seems remarkably cheap. One would expect it to be expensive.

However I have no practical knowledge on this.

Furthermore the statement reads: " In Deutschland gilt grundsätzlich das Prinzip der Vermeidung von Mehrstaatigkeit, ausgenommen sind aber insbesondere Staatsangehörige der anderen EU-Mitgliedstaaten sowie der Schweiz."

So by my understanding dual nationality in Germany is allowed if it is together with another EU country and Switzerland, or to put it correctly these EU countries and Switzerland are excepted from the avoidance. At the same time the word "insbesondere" confuses me, leading me to believe that beside the "insbesondere" there might be "something other", whatever that is. It's quite possible that this "something other" might be in cases where one can not legally renounce the other citizenship.
OrangeMango is online now  
Old Aug 29th 2020, 10:44 pm
  #13  
 
BritInParis's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2012
Location: Not in Paris
Posts: 17,443
BritInParis has a reputation beyond reputeBritInParis has a reputation beyond reputeBritInParis has a reputation beyond reputeBritInParis has a reputation beyond reputeBritInParis has a reputation beyond reputeBritInParis has a reputation beyond reputeBritInParis has a reputation beyond reputeBritInParis has a reputation beyond reputeBritInParis has a reputation beyond reputeBritInParis has a reputation beyond reputeBritInParis has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Nationality question

Bear in mind that a modified jus soli principle applies in Germany - at least one of the non-citizen parents will need to be a permanent resident and have resided in Germany for at least eight years for the child to be German at birth. However if that's the case there's no limit to the number of citizenships the child can hold. German nationality law partially restricts its citizens from naturalising in another country but there are no restrictions on holding other nationalities by descent.
BritInParis is online now  
Old Aug 30th 2020, 6:39 am
  #14  
dmu
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Thread Starter
 
Joined: Apr 2008
Location: Hérault (34)
Posts: 8,680
dmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Nationality question

Originally Posted by BritInParis View Post
Bear in mind that a modified jus soli principle applies in Germany - at least one of the non-citizen parents will need to be a permanent resident and have resided in Germany for at least eight years for the child to be German at birth. However if that's the case there's no limit to the number of citizenships the child can hold. German nationality law partially restricts its citizens from naturalising in another country but there are no restrictions on holding other nationalities by descent.
AFAIK this is the case...
Thanks to every one for your input, I'll keep you updated if it all comes to pass!
dmu is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.