Is Germany making a big mistake?
Sep 9th 2015, 12:38 pm
#1
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Is Germany making a big mistake?
It's tragic how many people are fleeing Syria, but are German politicians just being too optimistic here? Of course Germany can help, but because of media, laws and a few stupid politicians, they all think Germany is the land of hope. These people will not receive much more money in Germany (compared to other countries in the EU) and unfortunately many will never find a job. What are your thoughts?
Sep 10th 2015, 10:27 am
#2
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Re: Is Germany making a big mistake?
Only time will tell.
Sep 10th 2015, 10:31 am
#3
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Re: Is Germany making a big mistake?
It's tragic how many people are fleeing Syria, but are German politicians just being too optimistic here? Of course Germany can help, but because of media, laws and a few stupid politicians, they all think Germany is the land of hope. These people will not receive much more money in Germany (compared to other countries in the EU) and unfortunately many will never find a job. What are your thoughts?
Sep 10th 2015, 11:24 am
#4
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Re: Is Germany making a big mistake?
Well that doesn't mean that they won't come to the UK. Many will eventually become EU citizens, so are free to travel and move to the UK if they want to. Personally I think we should start looking at how we can make the other EU countries more attractive. It doesn't help anyone if people all flood in to a few countries, because it reduces the quality of life for everyone. Look how big Poland is and they only have a population of less than 40 Million, but Germany isn't that much bigger and has over 80 Million.
Sep 10th 2015, 8:01 pm
#5
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Re: Is Germany making a big mistake?
Merkel takes the "Christian" bit of Christian Democratic Union seriously. Good for her.
Sep 11th 2015, 8:30 am
#6
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Re: Is Germany making a big mistake?
I could write pages on this and I may yet do so, but ultimately the difference between Britain's and Germany's approach to the current crisis can be summed up thus:
Britain: Is it in Britain's interest?
Germany: Is it the right thing to do?
Britain: Is it in Britain's interest?
Germany: Is it the right thing to do?
Sep 11th 2015, 8:43 am
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Re: Is Germany making a big mistake?
Is it the right thing to do for Germany? Dont forget the supposed half million per year mentioned by Merkel. Didn't she reference recently that multi-culturalism wasn't working?
Sep 11th 2015, 9:31 am
#8
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Re: Is Germany making a big mistake?
I don't think she really knows what she's doing. They always talk about integration, but you can't change the mentality of all of these people and unfortunately the problems aren't solved. At the moment it is certainly safer than back home and some people will certainly adapt, but many will end up in a ghetto and it starts all over again. We just need to look at the problems we already have in Europe (Russia, Ukraine). Big question would be why the richest sates in the ME don't take refugees, or why don't they solve the whole problem if they have so much money?
Sep 11th 2015, 9:52 am
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Re: Is Germany making a big mistake?
I think that may be just a little too nuanced for some people.
On the one hand, one could say that it's the right thing to do, plain and simple, and therefore it's the right thing for Germany to do, irrespective of whether it's in Germany's interests or not.
That appears to me to be the prevailing feeling in Germany. Germans are well aware of what is about to hit them. We have had successive waves of migrants in living memory: 12 million German citizens expelled from the eastern territories after WWII; many millions more evacuated to other areas after the RAF flattened most of Germany's cities in WWII; around 14 million "guest workers" between 1961 and 1973; 2 million East Germans migrating west after the fall of communism; around 4 1/2 million ethnic Germans repatriated from the Eastern Bloc (most of them in the short period before and after the fall of communism); plus various other waves of migrants, such as asylum-seekers from the former Yugoslavia in not inconsiderable numbers in the 1990s, not to mention myself. :-)
There is some very vocal resistance, and even burning down of refugees' hostels reminiscent of the Kristallnacht, especially in "Dunkeldeutschland" (dark Germany, the part of the country where there are hardly any dark-skinned people); equally, we are seeing huge efforts on the part of many Germans to help the refugees. But the vast majority of Germans, I believe, have mixed feelings, will grumble about the inconvenience and cost, but will simply accept it as being the right thing to do.
On the other hand, one could arguably say that Germany's situation is different to Britain's, and therefore that it might, as you say, be the right thing for Germany to do, but not for Britain. Germany has an estimated demographic deficit of 500,000 people per year, so...
... the suggestion made by the Social Democrats – Merkel's coalition partner – and taken up by Merkel herself that we take that many isn't plucked out of thin air.
It would be naive of course to suggest that half a million Syrians can simply be slotted into society where half a million Germans would have been had they been born, but it is equally naive to think that Germans don't know that. Half a million per year is actually only a third of the number of guest workers, mainly Turks, that Germany accepted per year between 1961 and 1973, and the consequences of that are very obvious today. In my own city for example, a fifth of the population is now Moslem.
Yes, but again, this is simply too nuanced for the discourse in Britain. In Germany, "multi-culturalism" doesn't mean "lots of foreigners". It means "lots of foreigners who don't integrate". The debate has shifted hugely in Germany even in the last 15 years and the question is no longer "Immigration?" but "Integration?". In the past, Germany accepted migrants in huge numbers but made inadequate efforts to integrate them; Merkel is keen not to repeat that mistake, and that is what she is referring to.
On the one hand, one could say that it's the right thing to do, plain and simple, and therefore it's the right thing for Germany to do, irrespective of whether it's in Germany's interests or not.
That appears to me to be the prevailing feeling in Germany. Germans are well aware of what is about to hit them. We have had successive waves of migrants in living memory: 12 million German citizens expelled from the eastern territories after WWII; many millions more evacuated to other areas after the RAF flattened most of Germany's cities in WWII; around 14 million "guest workers" between 1961 and 1973; 2 million East Germans migrating west after the fall of communism; around 4 1/2 million ethnic Germans repatriated from the Eastern Bloc (most of them in the short period before and after the fall of communism); plus various other waves of migrants, such as asylum-seekers from the former Yugoslavia in not inconsiderable numbers in the 1990s, not to mention myself. :-)
There is some very vocal resistance, and even burning down of refugees' hostels reminiscent of the Kristallnacht, especially in "Dunkeldeutschland" (dark Germany, the part of the country where there are hardly any dark-skinned people); equally, we are seeing huge efforts on the part of many Germans to help the refugees. But the vast majority of Germans, I believe, have mixed feelings, will grumble about the inconvenience and cost, but will simply accept it as being the right thing to do.
On the other hand, one could arguably say that Germany's situation is different to Britain's, and therefore that it might, as you say, be the right thing for Germany to do, but not for Britain. Germany has an estimated demographic deficit of 500,000 people per year, so...
It would be naive of course to suggest that half a million Syrians can simply be slotted into society where half a million Germans would have been had they been born, but it is equally naive to think that Germans don't know that. Half a million per year is actually only a third of the number of guest workers, mainly Turks, that Germany accepted per year between 1961 and 1973, and the consequences of that are very obvious today. In my own city for example, a fifth of the population is now Moslem.
Yes, but again, this is simply too nuanced for the discourse in Britain. In Germany, "multi-culturalism" doesn't mean "lots of foreigners". It means "lots of foreigners who don't integrate". The debate has shifted hugely in Germany even in the last 15 years and the question is no longer "Immigration?" but "Integration?". In the past, Germany accepted migrants in huge numbers but made inadequate efforts to integrate them; Merkel is keen not to repeat that mistake, and that is what she is referring to.
Sep 11th 2015, 10:09 am
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Re: Is Germany making a big mistake?
I think that may be just a little too nuanced for some people.
On the one hand, one could say that it's the right thing to do, plain and simple, and therefore it's the right thing for Germany to do, irrespective of whether it's in Germany's interests or not.
That appears to me to be the prevailing feeling in Germany. Germans are well aware of what is about to hit them. We have had successive waves of migrants in living memory: 12 million German citizens expelled from the eastern territories after WWII; many millions more evacuated to other areas after the RAF flattened most of Germany's cities in WWII; around 14 million "guest workers" between 1961 and 1973; 2 million East Germans migrating west after the fall of communism; around 4 1/2 million ethnic Germans repatriated from the Eastern Bloc (most of them in the short period before and after the fall of communism); plus various other waves of migrants, such as asylum-seekers from the former Yugoslavia in not inconsiderable numbers in the 1990s, not to mention myself. :-)
There is some very vocal resistance, and even burning down of refugees' hostels reminiscent of the Kristallnacht, especially in "Dunkeldeutschland" (dark Germany, the part of the country where there are hardly any dark-skinned people); equally, we are seeing huge efforts on the part of many Germans to help the refugees. But the vast majority of Germans, I believe, have mixed feelings, will grumble about the inconvenience and cost, but will simply accept it as being the right thing to do.
On the other hand, one could arguably say that Germany's situation is different to Britain's, and therefore that it might, as you say, be the right thing for Germany to do, but not for Britain. Germany has an estimated demographic deficit of 500,000 people per year, so...
... the suggestion made by the Social Democrats – Merkel's coalition partner – and taken up by Merkel herself that we take that many isn't plucked out of thin air.
It would be naive of course to suggest that half a million Syrians can simply be slotted into society where half a million Germans would have been had they been born, but it is equally naive to think that Germans don't know that. Half a million per year is actually only a third of the number of guest workers, mainly Turks, that Germany accepted per year between 1961 and 1973, and the consequences of that are very obvious today. In my own city for example, a fifth of the population is now Moslem.
Yes, but again, this is simply too nuanced for the discourse in Britain. In Germany, "multi-culturalism" doesn't mean "lots of foreigners". It means "lots of foreigners who don't integrate". The debate has shifted hugely in Germany even in the last 15 years and the question is no longer "Immigration?" but "Integration?". In the past, Germany accepted migrants in huge numbers but made inadequate efforts to integrate them; Merkel is keen not to repeat that mistake, and that is what she is referring to.
On the one hand, one could say that it's the right thing to do, plain and simple, and therefore it's the right thing for Germany to do, irrespective of whether it's in Germany's interests or not.
That appears to me to be the prevailing feeling in Germany. Germans are well aware of what is about to hit them. We have had successive waves of migrants in living memory: 12 million German citizens expelled from the eastern territories after WWII; many millions more evacuated to other areas after the RAF flattened most of Germany's cities in WWII; around 14 million "guest workers" between 1961 and 1973; 2 million East Germans migrating west after the fall of communism; around 4 1/2 million ethnic Germans repatriated from the Eastern Bloc (most of them in the short period before and after the fall of communism); plus various other waves of migrants, such as asylum-seekers from the former Yugoslavia in not inconsiderable numbers in the 1990s, not to mention myself. :-)
There is some very vocal resistance, and even burning down of refugees' hostels reminiscent of the Kristallnacht, especially in "Dunkeldeutschland" (dark Germany, the part of the country where there are hardly any dark-skinned people); equally, we are seeing huge efforts on the part of many Germans to help the refugees. But the vast majority of Germans, I believe, have mixed feelings, will grumble about the inconvenience and cost, but will simply accept it as being the right thing to do.
On the other hand, one could arguably say that Germany's situation is different to Britain's, and therefore that it might, as you say, be the right thing for Germany to do, but not for Britain. Germany has an estimated demographic deficit of 500,000 people per year, so...
... the suggestion made by the Social Democrats – Merkel's coalition partner – and taken up by Merkel herself that we take that many isn't plucked out of thin air.
It would be naive of course to suggest that half a million Syrians can simply be slotted into society where half a million Germans would have been had they been born, but it is equally naive to think that Germans don't know that. Half a million per year is actually only a third of the number of guest workers, mainly Turks, that Germany accepted per year between 1961 and 1973, and the consequences of that are very obvious today. In my own city for example, a fifth of the population is now Moslem.
Yes, but again, this is simply too nuanced for the discourse in Britain. In Germany, "multi-culturalism" doesn't mean "lots of foreigners". It means "lots of foreigners who don't integrate". The debate has shifted hugely in Germany even in the last 15 years and the question is no longer "Immigration?" but "Integration?". In the past, Germany accepted migrants in huge numbers but made inadequate efforts to integrate them; Merkel is keen not to repeat that mistake, and that is what she is referring to.
Point #1 Pure opinion, yes supported by around 60% of Germans now, 6 or 9 months from now? I suspect less than half.
Point #2 Germany has with success taken in many refugees in the past, mostly of European ancestry. In regards to the Turkish immigrants in the 1960's, well Turkey and the Arab culture is far different now than the 60's.
Point #3 No one should want to see burning of refugee centers, nothing positive can come from that.
#4 The demographic problem.....Time will tell if it helps or just changes the problem.
I have tried to be respectful, no hard feelings intended.
Sep 11th 2015, 10:33 am
#11
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Re: Is Germany making a big mistake?
I think that may be just a little too nuanced for some people.
On the one hand, one could say that it's the right thing to do, plain and simple, and therefore it's the right thing for Germany to do, irrespective of whether it's in Germany's interests or not.
That appears to me to be the prevailing feeling in Germany. Germans are well aware of what is about to hit them. We have had successive waves of migrants in living memory: 12 million German citizens expelled from the eastern territories after WWII; many millions more evacuated to other areas after the RAF flattened most of Germany's cities in WWII; around 14 million "guest workers" between 1961 and 1973; 2 million East Germans migrating west after the fall of communism; around 4 1/2 million ethnic Germans repatriated from the Eastern Bloc (most of them in the short period before and after the fall of communism); plus various other waves of migrants, such as asylum-seekers from the former Yugoslavia in not inconsiderable numbers in the 1990s, not to mention myself. :-)
There is some very vocal resistance, and even burning down of refugees' hostels reminiscent of the Kristallnacht, especially in "Dunkeldeutschland" (dark Germany, the part of the country where there are hardly any dark-skinned people); equally, we are seeing huge efforts on the part of many Germans to help the refugees. But the vast majority of Germans, I believe, have mixed feelings, will grumble about the inconvenience and cost, but will simply accept it as being the right thing to do.
On the other hand, one could arguably say that Germany's situation is different to Britain's, and therefore that it might, as you say, be the right thing for Germany to do, but not for Britain. Germany has an estimated demographic deficit of 500,000 people per year, so...
... the suggestion made by the Social Democrats – Merkel's coalition partner – and taken up by Merkel herself that we take that many isn't plucked out of thin air.
It would be naive of course to suggest that half a million Syrians can simply be slotted into society where half a million Germans would have been had they been born, but it is equally naive to think that Germans don't know that. Half a million per year is actually only a third of the number of guest workers, mainly Turks, that Germany accepted per year between 1961 and 1973, and the consequences of that are very obvious today. In my own city for example, a fifth of the population is now Moslem.
Yes, but again, this is simply too nuanced for the discourse in Britain. In Germany, "multi-culturalism" doesn't mean "lots of foreigners". It means "lots of foreigners who don't integrate". The debate has shifted hugely in Germany even in the last 15 years and the question is no longer "Immigration?" but "Integration?". In the past, Germany accepted migrants in huge numbers but made inadequate efforts to integrate them; Merkel is keen not to repeat that mistake, and that is what she is referring to.
On the one hand, one could say that it's the right thing to do, plain and simple, and therefore it's the right thing for Germany to do, irrespective of whether it's in Germany's interests or not.
That appears to me to be the prevailing feeling in Germany. Germans are well aware of what is about to hit them. We have had successive waves of migrants in living memory: 12 million German citizens expelled from the eastern territories after WWII; many millions more evacuated to other areas after the RAF flattened most of Germany's cities in WWII; around 14 million "guest workers" between 1961 and 1973; 2 million East Germans migrating west after the fall of communism; around 4 1/2 million ethnic Germans repatriated from the Eastern Bloc (most of them in the short period before and after the fall of communism); plus various other waves of migrants, such as asylum-seekers from the former Yugoslavia in not inconsiderable numbers in the 1990s, not to mention myself. :-)
There is some very vocal resistance, and even burning down of refugees' hostels reminiscent of the Kristallnacht, especially in "Dunkeldeutschland" (dark Germany, the part of the country where there are hardly any dark-skinned people); equally, we are seeing huge efforts on the part of many Germans to help the refugees. But the vast majority of Germans, I believe, have mixed feelings, will grumble about the inconvenience and cost, but will simply accept it as being the right thing to do.
On the other hand, one could arguably say that Germany's situation is different to Britain's, and therefore that it might, as you say, be the right thing for Germany to do, but not for Britain. Germany has an estimated demographic deficit of 500,000 people per year, so...
... the suggestion made by the Social Democrats – Merkel's coalition partner – and taken up by Merkel herself that we take that many isn't plucked out of thin air.
It would be naive of course to suggest that half a million Syrians can simply be slotted into society where half a million Germans would have been had they been born, but it is equally naive to think that Germans don't know that. Half a million per year is actually only a third of the number of guest workers, mainly Turks, that Germany accepted per year between 1961 and 1973, and the consequences of that are very obvious today. In my own city for example, a fifth of the population is now Moslem.
Yes, but again, this is simply too nuanced for the discourse in Britain. In Germany, "multi-culturalism" doesn't mean "lots of foreigners". It means "lots of foreigners who don't integrate". The debate has shifted hugely in Germany even in the last 15 years and the question is no longer "Immigration?" but "Integration?". In the past, Germany accepted migrants in huge numbers but made inadequate efforts to integrate them; Merkel is keen not to repeat that mistake, and that is what she is referring to.
They always talk about pensions at that they need more young people etc. This obsession with population growth has to stop at some point. We are already ruining our environment, so why force it? I actually watched an interesting programme about Duisburg-Marxloh and that was schocking.
Sep 12th 2015, 3:23 am
#13
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Re: Is Germany making a big mistake?
I think it's very telling that some of the wealthy ME countries haven't offered to take any refugees, although Saudi Arabia is happy to build 200 mosques in Germany. I saw a report from Kuwait where the person being interviewed said "why should we take people who won't fit in here." I see also there have been leaders of several EU countries that are saying they will only take Christian refugees. My own opinion is that yes, Germany is making a big mistake. We're already seeing a backlash against multiculturalism across many EU countries and many point the finger at muslims for failing/refusing to integrate.
Sep 13th 2015, 5:43 am
#14
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Re: Is Germany making a big mistake?
I think the whole population forecast in Germany is wrong and I don't know how they come up with these figures. Sure they can go by age and birth rates now, but nobody knows how many people will move to Germany in the coming years. Even the people who left could return at some point, or suddenly people start to breed like rabbits They always talk about pensions at that they need more young people etc. This obsession with population growth has to stop at some point. We are already ruining our environment, so why force it? I actually watched an interesting programme about Duisburg-Marxloh and that was schocking.
They always talk about pensions at that they need more young people etc. This obsession with population growth has to stop at some point. We are already ruining our environment, so why force it? I actually watched an interesting programme about Duisburg-Marxloh and that was schocking.I also am not sure if the population is really shrinking and if this would be a problem. I still remember the warnings from experts about machines taking over jobs and unemployment rising. Now the experts seem to have forgotten about this worry. Now they say we will lack workers.
We also haven't seen a rise in salaries which should be accompanied by a shrinking number of workers.
Sep 13th 2015, 9:50 am
#15
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Re: Is Germany making a big mistake?
Germany is the economic powerhouse of Europe and a place that still has industry. You know - factories that make things.
UK has become a service economy where the only way to prosper is to work in a financial institution manipulating LIBOR or faffing about with PPI.
UK has become a service economy where the only way to prosper is to work in a financial institution manipulating LIBOR or faffing about with PPI.