inchoate

Hi all. I was born in Germany (dad was in the army), we all moved to England in 1989 (I was 12 at the time). I hold an English passport. I was just wondering if I could apply for dual English/German citizenship. If I could would I be required to do National Service for Germany (Dunno if they even have it, how's that for blissfull ignorance?)

Thanks

JAJ

Firstly - there's no such thing as English citizenship or an English passport. You're a British citizen.

In response to your question:

Short answer - you're not German and never have been, unless your mother was German.

Longer answer:
- generally speaking being born in Germany does not make you German. Usually you need a German parent (usually a father prior to 1975) and place of birth does not matter.
- there is a limited exception for those born in 2000 or later with long resident foreign parents
http://www.germanemb.org.il/GermanEm...SSTA1MZ_en.pdf

Jeremy

Pommy Expat

Well said. A British passport is probably more Irish than English as it not only has the word Ireland on it, but also the name of the UK in Irish, courtesy of the EU. Try finding the words England or English on it. What advantage is there in having a German passport anyway?

Calgal

Hmmmmm this is an interesting one!

Does anyone out there know what role, if any, a German birth certificate plays in these situations? My daughter was born to us (both British), on a Canadian Military base in Germany. A German birth certificates was issued for her. She also has a British birth certificate from the British consulate in Dusseldorf. I have read the information on the link that Jeremy posted.

At the time I had an uncle (now deceased) who was living in Monchengladbach, who married a German girl back in the 60's. He believed that she may well be entitled to German citizenship when she reaches eighteen years of age.

JAJ

In general a German birth certificate means nothing at all in terms of access to German citizenship.

German citizenship is generally given on the basis of having a German parent, and place of birth is irrelevant.

For this reason, there have been second and third generation children of foreign families (Slovene, Croat, Italian, Portuguese, Spanish etc) born in Germany who are not German citizens despite the fact they speak fluent German and Germany is the only country they have known.

In January 2000 German law changed slightly to given German born children of *foreign* parents German citizenship by birth provided that the parents are permanent residents and have lived in Germany for eight years. This applies to children born in 2000 or later, with some transitional concessions for those born from 1990.

In this case, the child is obliged to prove by age 23 that any non-German citizenship is no longer held (those with a German parent do not need to do this even if they acquire another nationality at birth).

So your daughter is not German. However, were you in the British forces or the Canadian forces at the time? And was it before or after 1 January 1983?

It's important as it might make a difference as to whether your daughter is British 'by descent' or not (which in turn may impact whether *her* children are British, if they are also born outside the UK).

There are lots of myths about citizenship law.


Jeremy

Calgal

Hi again,

My daughter was born in July of 1992. My husband was then employed by the Canadian Department of National Defence, as a civilian from England. We lived there (not on the base, but in a German town) for a total of four years, during which time we purchased a house. We left in 1993, due to the closure of the base and came to Canada, having aquired permanent residence. Does this change anything?

Many thanks for your input, Jeremy

----------------------------

Well - talk about confusion! Since typing the above, I have been to the British home office web site and trawled through all the potential answers there. I can't figure out which applies to my daughters case.

1) I should make clear that SHE has NEVER been a resident of the UK.

2) Both myself and my husband were British citizens at the time of her birth.

3) Husband was employed by the CANADIAN forces, as a CIVILIAN (we came from England to the job).

4) After her birth we never returned to live in the UK - we came to Canada after achieving Landed Immigrant (now PR) status via the Canadian office in the Hague (we applied whilst in Germany). We arrived in Canada Oct 1993.

5) We became Canadian citizens (all of us), in 1999 (I think).

I think that about covers it One other question the web site has raised for me: Is registration of a birth, the same as registration for citizenship? From what I read, I think not. If not, can she still obtain British citizenship, and if so - what do we need to do?

CPW

From what you say, it seems that your daughter is a British citizen by descent. She doesn't need to register (or be registered) as a British citizen, and my understanding is that she could apply for a British passport (since she is already a British citizen). The fact that she has never lived in the UK and has become a Canadian citizen since her birth would make no difference to this.

JAJ

That's correct. However as you were employed by the Canadian forces, the concession given to children of parents of UK Crown Servants born overseas does not apply - so your daughter is British 'by descent' and her children born *outside* the UK may not be British unless they can get this status from the other parent.

What passport did she travel on before she became a Canadian citizen in 1999?



Jeremy

Calgal

This is getting interesting!

She was added to my passport (British), which is the only one I currently hold (Haven't got my Cdn one yet).

BUT - I do remember reading on the British govt site last night, that whether or not we/she(?) returned to the UK was very relevant (three years was mentioned), also something about a limit on leaving the UK (270 days)maximum. I could not find an anwer that exactly fit our circumstances

(I have emailed the British immigration authorities via their site, also)

Something else I found unclear there, were the words "British Citizen", British Subject", and British National", all used depending on the situation. Are these all one and the same? I got the impression that they're not, but no idea what the differences are, and what they each really mean.

CPW

I take it that you or your husband was born in the UK? If so (and if it was not you who was born there but your husband, you were married at the time of the birth), then your daughter is a British citizen by descent. Why do you think she might not be?

There is no requirement for her ever even to set foot in the United Kingdom in her entire life to retain that status.

There are various time limits that people who have residency statuses in the UK (not British citizenship) may be out of the country without losing that status. There are also time limits about how long people naturalising as British citizens can be outside the country during their qualifying period. But none of that is relevant to your daughter.

The statuses of British Citizen, British Subject and British National are not synonymous. However, as far as can be determined from the information you have given, your daughter is in fact a British citizen (as noted above), so the particulars relating to the other two statuses are not relevant to her.

JAJ

It is very unlikely they would have added her to your British passport if she was not a British citizen. Nor would the British authorities in Germany have issued a consular birth certificate.

You've become confused with some requirements that apply if parents are British *by descent*. If you are UK born or naturalised yourself it doesn't apply, but might apply to your daughter's own children in due course.

Were you and your husband born in the UK (or naturalised there)?

Leaflet BN4 is your reference.
http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/ind...tizenship.html

If you are, or your husband or your wife is, a British citizen otherwise than by descent, your child born outside the United Kingdom (or the qualifying territories (see Note C) if born on or after 21 May 2002) will automatically be a British citizen when he or she is born ... But your child will be a British citizen by descent unless you are, or your husband or wife is, a British citizen in one of the types of services listed in paragraph 16. You do not need to take any official action when your child is born to confirm his or her status, but if you want, for example, to apply for a British passport for your child you will need to produce certain documents (see paragraph 19).

It is advisable for all of you to have up to date British and Canadian passports. For example, your daughter will not be let into the US under new rules as she is on your passport (now a no-no for the US visa waiver). In any case it's more advisable to use a Canadian passport to travel to the US rather than a British one.

There are *six* categories of British National:

British Citizen

British overseas territories citizen - those connected with British territories (Falklands, Gbiraltar, Bermuda, St Helena etc). Virtually all of them now hold British citizenship as well.

British overseas citizen - generally those connected with a *former* British colony who have no ties to the UK

British National (Overseas) - a special category for those connected with Hong Kong prior to 1997

British Subject - Residual status under the former nationality acts, only relevant to those connected with Southern Ireland or British India (India/Pakistan/Bangladesh) prior to 1949.

British Protected Person - Not British nationals in the strict sense of the term, but under 'British protection' connected with former British protectorates (eg Solomon Islands, Northern Rhodesia). Very few people hold this status today.


Only British citizens have an automatic right to live in the UK. However:

- British overseas territories citizens almost universally have British citizenship as well, or are entitled to claim it

- British subjects who have a UK born parent have Right of Abode and can register as British citizens after 5 years living in the UK. This includes almost all of those from Southern Ireland, and some of those from British India.

- Since 2003, British Overseas citizens, British subjects and British protected persons with no other nationality have been able to register as British citizens.

- Special laws passed in 1997 gave some British Nationals (Overseas) the right to register as British citizens if they did not have Chinese (or any other) nationality. This benefitted about 8000 people in Hong Kong, mainly of Indian ethnic origin.

The term 'British National' is not defined anywhere in law but is used in common speak to cover all the above categories. However being a British Citizen does not make you a British Subject as far as the British Nationality Act is concerned.

The following gives a general overview of British nationality law:
http://www.answers.com/topic/british-nationality-law


Jeremy

Calgal

Thank you Jeremy,

Both my husband and myself ARE British Citizens 'by descent'. (That is: Born and raised in the UK to parents born and raised in the UK?), and were married at the time of her birth.

What I understand from your advice, and that on the home office site, my daughter is:
1) A "British Citizen other than by decent".
2) Her Children will not be entitled to British Citizenship.
3) She has no claim to German Citizenship.

(I think)...lol No doubt someone will post something to the contrary

JAJ

You've got it the wrong way around. As you were born in the UK, you're British *otherwise* than by descent.


1. She's British *by descent*

2. Not automatically, unless
- they are born in the UK or a British territory; or
- they get British citizenship from the other parent; or
- your daughter is in 'Crown Service' for the UK government.
However, if they are not automatically British there are provisions to allow them to be registered as British in some circumstances (see the link quoted).

3. Correct, based on my understanding of German law.


Jeremy

Calgal

Silly me I get it now (kind of strange, though - the wording the govt use, I am, after all a 'descendant' of british people....lol)

Thank you Jeremy, for your help and advice, and taking the time to 'educate' me It is very much appreciated!