BEVS

First. I am not sure what I am asking and I have read the FAQS
Second. This is not about me or mine. It is re someone I have been quietly helping .

Two divorcees marry in the UK 1988. They live in the UK but then sell up moving to France sometime around 2008.
They live in a house until he dies 2016. I have the death cert.
2018 she sells up I think.

He may or may not have had children with his previous marriage.
She had one child - adopted out.

Would each have needed to make a French will ?
Would any English will be counted - not that I have found probate for one. I have not.
Does the surviving spouse automatically inherit. I have it that perhaps that is not the case.
What paperwork would there be.

Thanks for any insight.

Helen1964

Hi Bevs
Someone with more detailed knowledge of French inheritance law will hopefully be along soon but can I just say that my husband and I were married outside France and, because of this, were automatically deemed to be married under the « séparation des biens » régime. That meant if one of us died, half of everything we owned would go to the surviving spouse. And the other half would go to the deceased’s nearest blood relatives.

When we bought our flat in France we contacted a French notaire and got our marriage regime changed so that the surviving spouse would inherit everything.

So perhaps the first thing to ascertain is whether this couple did something similar.

EuroTrash

As Helen says, until you know all the facts it is pointless to speculate really. French succession law is very precise, there is one set of rules to match virtually every imaginable set of circumstances, and any speculation without knowing the facts would be too full of ifs and buts and unlesses to be any use really. You need to know the exact circumstances in order to know which rules apply. I think you need to have a chat with a notaire who will ask all the relevant questions in the right order. Depending on the existence or non existence of children belonging to one or the other or both, how the house was purchased - whether jointly or in one name only, the marriage regime, the answers will be completely different.

Are you saying that one partner died in 2016 and the inheritance hasn't been sorted out yet??? It would be extraordinary, but if that's the case it will have to be dealt with by a notaire. Succession is always dealt with by a notaire in France, it cannot be dealt with by a private individual acting as an "executor" as in the UK. Basically it is about applying French succession law and collecting taxes on behalf of the state. A private individual can't do that.

EDIT - I see the surviving spouse sold up in 2018. She wouldn't have been able to do that if the house had not been legally 100% in her name, ylegally ou cannot sell something that does not belong to you. So presumably everything had been sorted out by then. If you want details of how the succession was administered, the notaire who acted may be willing to take you through it.

dmu

Complicated situation, with not enough info to give solid advice!
French Taxe de Succession is always levied on French property, whoever bequeathed/inherited it and must be paid within 6 months of the decease. In this respect, French Law overrides a "foreign" law. Some one more in the know will come along to say whether bequests in an English Will are valid, even if they go against the French Laws of Inheritance.
Without knowing whether the husband had children of his own, or, as said, knowing what their Régime Matrimonial was, it's not possible to know what share of the property the widow inherited. Depending on the value of her share of the inheritance, she, together with other possible heirs, will have paid the Taxe de Succession at the time. If she has step-children, she will have arranged the financial side with them before selling the property 2 years afterwards. If she hasn't remarried, the adopted child will inherit from her.
If the husband didn't have any children, any siblings would have made a claim at the time....
In fact, I'm not sure what you're asking, after so long! Your friend could contact the Notaire that the wife used to sell the property. He in turn will know which Notaire dealt with the Succession when the husband died. If it's in a small town, it's probably the same one.... The documents required to present to the Notaire face-to-face would include the husband's Death Certificate and proof of relationship to him or his heirs (with translations). The Notaire wouldn't give any info to a third party unconnected to the family....
HTH, but it doesn't make things very clear, with lack of details and so many "ifs".

Post crossed with ET's!

EuroTrash

To suggest tentative answers to these questions: There is no need to make a will in France because French succession law will deal with everything by default if no will is made. However, in some cases a person may wish to make a will; for instance if you wish to leave small bequests to friends or distant relatives, or if you have no close relatives and you don't want everything to go to the French state you may wish to make a will nominating a charity as your beneficiary.
I believe that if an English will is made, there has to be a French will giving an instruction to use the English will? but could be wrong on that. Also I can't remember when the agreement about home country wills came into force, was it prior to 2016? And the important thing to note is that even the estate is distributed as per the English will, French succession taxes will still apply, so e.g. anything left to a non relative will be taxed at 60%. An English will does not override that.

No I don't think any of us are LOL!
Is any of this helping at all?

Listen Very Carefully

Firstly in the event of a death in France a notaire deals with all matters relating to the estate There are no "executors" probate or UK involvement in this The notaire will also hire genealogists to trace children etc of the deceased So who was the notaire who dealt with the death Presumably when she sold up she had to have had some sort of paperwork to say that she was the owner of the property and entitled to sell it The notaire would also have issued other paperwork for example to deal with the car etc Is the wife still alive? or is it her heirs who are dealing with this
Personally I would advise who ever it is you are advising to seek professional help as inheritance in France can be a minefield There are UK solicitor that have developed french legal departments who may be able to help

BEVS

Actually . All this is incredibly helpful so thank you all very much.

I am a genealogist however my query wasn't about money or inheritance . Not an heir hunt & I am not offering any form of financial or legal advice. Sorry. I should have made that clear.

It was more to understand the protocols & procedures . If any of you feel some other or further info might help clarify procedures then I will share that info if I have it.

Thanks again

dmu

Having re-read your OP, I realize that I misread "adopted out". I first thought that the wife had adopted a child, which is why I said that the child would inherit from her, but I now believe that she gave her child out for adoption? In which case you'd have to check whether, under French and English Law, she would still be heir to her biological mother and have the right to make all the enquiries that we are suggesting. A rapid search for France found that this depends on what type of adoption it was - "simple" or "plenary" - the former allows an adopted child to inherit from its biological parents, the latter doesn't. I realize that you aren't asking about inheritance, but this is a practical detail regarding the right to make the present search.
But I confirm that only the Notaire(s) who dealt with the Succession and property sale will be able to advise...
HTH

EuroTrash

If you're asking basically how France records changes in your état civll, such as marriage and divorce and births and deaths - well everyone has a livret de famille and a birth certificate that is updated each time a change takes place. Others will tell you more about this. I don't have one, but I have translated extracts from them for legal purposes, eg a handwritten record of a marriage..
It's an irritation for Brits becauise when you have to provide a copy of your birth certificate it generally has to be a recent copy less than 2 or 6 months old or something. The reason for this is to see the latest updates, but of course British birth certificates never are updated so it simply means you end up keeping buying another birth certificate exactly the same as all the others you have had to buy through the years.
Is this more what you were after? I am finding it confusing that the thread is called "Wills and distribution of estate" but it is not about money and inheritance, because what else are wills and distribution of estate about if not money and inheritance

dmu

Small correction. Only married (and maybe pacsed) couples are issued a Livret de Famille by the person at the Mairie officiating.
I received one when I got married. It marks our marriage, our dates and places of birth, names of respective parents, the births of our daughters, and OH's death. There's a page for "Divorce" if this had happened.
His (French) birth certificate mentioned his first marriage and subsequent divorce, and his marriage to me. (I always wonder how they manage to find enough space in the margins to write by hand all previous marriages for those who marry/divorce several times). As said, an updated Acte de Naissance indicates the owner's matrimonial status.
(This is to explain in general, from experience, it doesn't concern BEV's query....)

EuroTrash

Thanks for the clarification

BEVS

Sorry ET, dmu and others.
It is my bad use of language all round. I knew it was muddled and what with the monster headache I couldn't fathom the right words.

With this query it is about people or rather a person .

What happens when your partner dies can impact on your future movement and choices.

I find the info re birth certs and the livret de famille thing very helpful to try to understand .

Thank you