Are we mad to consider move at this stage/general advice?
Jul 11th 2018, 6:51 am
#1
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Are we mad to consider move at this stage/general advice?
Good Morning,
Firstly thank you to admin of the site - I have found the pinned posts really useful.
A bit about us - I am 36 year old female lawyer specialist in public child care. I am a civil servant but can work remotely coming into London office once every 10 days. I earn on a PAYE basis. My husband is a recruitment consultant can do contract “gigs” every couple of months of about 3 month terms. He would do this through a “company” that he would set up. We have a 7 month old baby and will look to have more in the future. We currently live on the south coast and have a large, crippling mortgage but are lucky enough to have a decent amount of equity. Realistically we can live any where in uk or Brittany/Normandy near ferry. We have also looked at cornwall, etc.
My brother lives and works in France, and loves it. As a country we like the more relaxed pace and realistically we want to step out of the rat race (i currently commute over 3 hours a day as does my other half).
However, if I’m super honest the main attraction is property prices. We can buy a decent house mortgage free (yes one of those big rambling ones that the french hate!), babies can grow up bilingual and we can look to saving the mortgage money each month as deposits for buy to let’s which would hopefully allow us to retire at 50 ish. The property’s that we are looking at also have some gites attached as an alternative income stream (but I am not naive enough to believe this will generate a significant income but if they pay for House improvements, ground maintenance, etc then we’ll worth it IMHO).
We will of course get advice from decent lawyer/accountant but wanted a idea if this is a real goer or not. Two sets of income tax in both countries would snooker us!
As as I understand it, if I spend less than 90 days in UK I can apply to have my PAYE tax code varied and therefore would be looking at paying french income tax - is this correct?
What are french income taxes like? I pay higher rate in the uk.
My OH would be paid into his company and would file tax returns in the uk and be paid in dividends. Would he then have to pay income tax on this in France? How would this affect his health care, etc in France.
if one of us is paying income tax in France, I assume our daughter can therefore go to a french school?
In terms of the buy to let flats, again we would use a agency to manage, etc but wound keep the money in a uk account so would pay tax on it in the uk. I assume if money never enters France we would not pay tax on it there.
Would we need private health insurance too? We currently have this in the UK.
Dare I even mention Brexit??? Do we wait and risk prices rising but potentially ££ rising too or do we say sod it, life’s for living balls to the wall let’s just do it.....
Firstly thank you to admin of the site - I have found the pinned posts really useful.
A bit about us - I am 36 year old female lawyer specialist in public child care. I am a civil servant but can work remotely coming into London office once every 10 days. I earn on a PAYE basis. My husband is a recruitment consultant can do contract “gigs” every couple of months of about 3 month terms. He would do this through a “company” that he would set up. We have a 7 month old baby and will look to have more in the future. We currently live on the south coast and have a large, crippling mortgage but are lucky enough to have a decent amount of equity. Realistically we can live any where in uk or Brittany/Normandy near ferry. We have also looked at cornwall, etc.
My brother lives and works in France, and loves it. As a country we like the more relaxed pace and realistically we want to step out of the rat race (i currently commute over 3 hours a day as does my other half).
However, if I’m super honest the main attraction is property prices. We can buy a decent house mortgage free (yes one of those big rambling ones that the french hate!), babies can grow up bilingual and we can look to saving the mortgage money each month as deposits for buy to let’s which would hopefully allow us to retire at 50 ish. The property’s that we are looking at also have some gites attached as an alternative income stream (but I am not naive enough to believe this will generate a significant income but if they pay for House improvements, ground maintenance, etc then we’ll worth it IMHO).
We will of course get advice from decent lawyer/accountant but wanted a idea if this is a real goer or not. Two sets of income tax in both countries would snooker us!
As as I understand it, if I spend less than 90 days in UK I can apply to have my PAYE tax code varied and therefore would be looking at paying french income tax - is this correct?
What are french income taxes like? I pay higher rate in the uk.
My OH would be paid into his company and would file tax returns in the uk and be paid in dividends. Would he then have to pay income tax on this in France? How would this affect his health care, etc in France.
if one of us is paying income tax in France, I assume our daughter can therefore go to a french school?
In terms of the buy to let flats, again we would use a agency to manage, etc but wound keep the money in a uk account so would pay tax on it in the uk. I assume if money never enters France we would not pay tax on it there.
Would we need private health insurance too? We currently have this in the UK.
Dare I even mention Brexit??? Do we wait and risk prices rising but potentially ££ rising too or do we say sod it, life’s for living balls to the wall let’s just do it.....
Jul 11th 2018, 7:43 am
#2
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Re: Are we mad to consider move at this stage/general advice?
Just a couple of points for you to look into to start with.
Your situation: If you live in France and work remotely from your home (or other premises) in France, ie your bum is in France when you do your work, then normally your status in France is "worker". All workers in France must be registered with URSSAF and must contribute to the French social security system. The UK's social security system including the NHS is basically residence based, so once you no longer live and work in the UK you are no longer entitled to belong to it.
There is a special arrangement whereby people who live in the EU but return to the UK to undertake all, or a substantial part of their work (cross border workers) do in fact continue paying NICs. They continue to be covered UK social security system and the NHS funds their healthcare in France. If you think this would be your situation, you would apply to HMRC and provide details of your work patten, and HMRC would decide whether you are eligible for this arrangement. But I doubt three trips back to the UK per month would count as "substantial", it normally means more than half of your working hours, ie folk who commute back to the UK every week for at least 3 days. Also, it's dubious whether the UK would still be a party to this arrangement after Brexit, although at present it's not at all clear what freedom of movement, if any, it wants to keep.
I don't know what the civil service's policy is on this. Normally, in theory, the employer would have to register the employee with URSSAF and pay (much higher) French social security contributions, but in fact very few UK employers will do this because of the extra cost (not sure UK taxpayers would be too happy to fund their civil servants' lifestyle in the sun!). Have you established that they would agree to you continuing your employment if you move abroad? I did find this, which may be relevant https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizen...s/index_en.htm
Re your OH, I'm not sure what you mean by contract gigs. Would all his work be carried out physically on UK soil? If so, see above, he would be a cross border worker and would apply to HMRC/DWP to cover his healthcare in France. If not, also see above - he would either have to set up a French business structure, or his UK company would have to register him as an employee living in France, and contribute to the French social security system.
If you both are resident in France you would certainly both pay income tax here (income tax is calculated per household not per individual). Where you pay your tax is not your decision, it is determined according to your situation by UK-France tax treaty. As French residents you declare worldwide income in France, and possibly you would also pay tax in the UK as a non resident on certain types of income; the tax treaty specifies which source of income is taxable in which country, and also ensures that you wouldn't be taxed twice on the same income.
I'm not going to comment on the perception of "cheap property" being France's main attraction, but I would suggest that Cornwall might be a lot simpler if basically you want to carry on doing your UK jobs and living your UK lifestyle.
Your situation: If you live in France and work remotely from your home (or other premises) in France, ie your bum is in France when you do your work, then normally your status in France is "worker". All workers in France must be registered with URSSAF and must contribute to the French social security system. The UK's social security system including the NHS is basically residence based, so once you no longer live and work in the UK you are no longer entitled to belong to it.
There is a special arrangement whereby people who live in the EU but return to the UK to undertake all, or a substantial part of their work (cross border workers) do in fact continue paying NICs. They continue to be covered UK social security system and the NHS funds their healthcare in France. If you think this would be your situation, you would apply to HMRC and provide details of your work patten, and HMRC would decide whether you are eligible for this arrangement. But I doubt three trips back to the UK per month would count as "substantial", it normally means more than half of your working hours, ie folk who commute back to the UK every week for at least 3 days. Also, it's dubious whether the UK would still be a party to this arrangement after Brexit, although at present it's not at all clear what freedom of movement, if any, it wants to keep.
I don't know what the civil service's policy is on this. Normally, in theory, the employer would have to register the employee with URSSAF and pay (much higher) French social security contributions, but in fact very few UK employers will do this because of the extra cost (not sure UK taxpayers would be too happy to fund their civil servants' lifestyle in the sun!). Have you established that they would agree to you continuing your employment if you move abroad? I did find this, which may be relevant https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizen...s/index_en.htm
Re your OH, I'm not sure what you mean by contract gigs. Would all his work be carried out physically on UK soil? If so, see above, he would be a cross border worker and would apply to HMRC/DWP to cover his healthcare in France. If not, also see above - he would either have to set up a French business structure, or his UK company would have to register him as an employee living in France, and contribute to the French social security system.
If you both are resident in France you would certainly both pay income tax here (income tax is calculated per household not per individual). Where you pay your tax is not your decision, it is determined according to your situation by UK-France tax treaty. As French residents you declare worldwide income in France, and possibly you would also pay tax in the UK as a non resident on certain types of income; the tax treaty specifies which source of income is taxable in which country, and also ensures that you wouldn't be taxed twice on the same income.
I'm not going to comment on the perception of "cheap property" being France's main attraction, but I would suggest that Cornwall might be a lot simpler if basically you want to carry on doing your UK jobs and living your UK lifestyle.
Jul 11th 2018, 7:45 am
#3
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Re: Are we mad to consider move at this stage/general advice?
Hi. Welcome to the forum.
As far as tax is concerned, UK rental income is taxed in the UK.
In France, you are taxed per household and not per individual.
You need to declare all worldwide income and property.
Double taxation treaty means that you are not taxed twice.
UK dividends are taxed as income in France and you pay french income tax on them.
You will probably have to pay social charges (NIC) on your family income.
If you are paying tax in France then you would be eligible for french healthcare.
You need to consult an accountant who is up-to-date with both UK and French taxation. An ordinary UK accountant will not be able to give you comprehensive advice.
That advice was given to me by a now retired accountant who worked in Spain for a UK accountancy firm
The french property market is NOTHING like the UK - especially to the SE of England.
You are unlikely to ever make a profit from a french home.
HTH
As far as tax is concerned, UK rental income is taxed in the UK.
In France, you are taxed per household and not per individual.
You need to declare all worldwide income and property.
Double taxation treaty means that you are not taxed twice.
UK dividends are taxed as income in France and you pay french income tax on them.
You will probably have to pay social charges (NIC) on your family income.
If you are paying tax in France then you would be eligible for french healthcare.
You need to consult an accountant who is up-to-date with both UK and French taxation. An ordinary UK accountant will not be able to give you comprehensive advice.
That advice was given to me by a now retired accountant who worked in Spain for a UK accountancy firm
The french property market is NOTHING like the UK - especially to the SE of England.
You are unlikely to ever make a profit from a french home.
HTH
Jul 11th 2018, 7:50 am
#4
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Re: Are we mad to consider move at this stage/general advice?
Erm. But paying income tax doesn't automatically entitle you to a carte vitale... There are various routes to healthcare, depending what your status in France is (worker, self-supporting inactif, retiree, or in this case possibly cross border worker covered by another state's social security system).
Jul 11th 2018, 8:43 am
#5
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Re: Are we mad to consider move at this stage/general advice?
Nothing to add to the above, except that children can be enrolled at school whether you pay Income Tax or not. You must simply prove your domicile. At present you may have problems finding a place in a crêche (if you need regular childcare due to work) but you could find an Assistante Maternelle for your baby until Maternelle, which starts at 3 (and some accept children from 2 if there's room and if they're "clean").
Do either of you speak adequate French to cope with all the inevitable Bureaucracy that your respective situations will involve?
Have to agree with ET that it might be simpler to choose Cornwall!
Do either of you speak adequate French to cope with all the inevitable Bureaucracy that your respective situations will involve?
Have to agree with ET that it might be simpler to choose Cornwall!
Jul 11th 2018, 9:03 am
#6
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Re: Are we mad to consider move at this stage/general advice?
Just occurred to me to wonder if the cross border workers link is on the stickies, either way here it is
https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizen...s/index_en.htm
https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizen...s/index_en.htm
Jul 11th 2018, 9:15 am
#7
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Re: Are we mad to consider move at this stage/general advice?
Many thanks all. Yes cornwall would be simpler, I agree but hey ho, if you don’t investigate all options you never know what your missing.
In summary, it’s all very complex and I need to sit down with a decent tax adviser who is bilingual. X
In summary, it’s all very complex and I need to sit down with a decent tax adviser who is bilingual. X
Jul 11th 2018, 9:19 am
#8
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Re: Are we mad to consider move at this stage/general advice?
I'm not going to comment on the perception of "cheap property" being France's main attraction, but I would suggest that Cornwall might be a lot simpler if basically you want to carry on doing your UK jobs and living your UK lifestyle.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for all the info. Without wanting to be confrontational/open a hornets nest, am I very wrong in our perception that french property is significantly cheaper? I appreciate that they need a significant amount of maintenance/work but am I missing something else? The french property would be viewed as a long term home as opposed to a investment property if that makes sense?
Jul 11th 2018, 9:25 am
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Re: Are we mad to consider move at this stage/general advice?
Plus at this time if he has a good crystal ball that would help, because after Brexit the current EU 'freedom of movement' arrangements will likely cease to apply to the UK, so you will be into uncharted territory. Assuming the UK does totally end freedom of movement (which I thought was the main purpose of Brexit) you could maybe get an idea of what to expect from looking at the current visa criteria for Aussies, US citizens etc who want to move to France, but I can't offhand think of a visa category that your circumstances would slot into.
Jul 11th 2018, 9:37 am
#10
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Re: Are we mad to consider move at this stage/general advice?
Just occurred to me to wonder if the cross border workers link is on the stickies, either way here it is
https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizen...s/index_en.htm
https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizen...s/index_en.htm
Jul 11th 2018, 9:48 am
#11
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Re: Are we mad to consider move at this stage/general advice?
Without wanting to be confrontational/open a hornets nest, am I very wrong in our perception that french property is significantly cheaper? I appreciate that they need a significant amount of maintenance/work but am I missing something else? The french property would be viewed as a long term home as opposed to a investment property if that makes sense?
Secondly, property is not a commodity here as it is in the UK and property prices are not the be all and end, in fact there is relatively little interest in property prices. In the UK, property tends to be the big life expense; healthcare costs next to nothing, food is cheap, etc. In France, healthcare and social contributions are high, decent food tends not to be cheap, goods and services aren't cheap either. Property isn't what you spend most of your money on.
That's my experience at any rate. It's a different economy. Your money still goes, but it goes on different things. I think it would probably be fair to say that very few Brits end up with more money in the bank after moving to France, though they may feel they have gained in other ways. Folk in France do not, on the whole, have more disposable income than folk in the UK. I think there is a danger of being disappointed if you move here because you think cheap property=cheap to live here.
If you can work it so that you get the best of both worlds, ie live in France so you avoid the high cost of UK property, but with the UK covering your healthcare so you avoid the high cost of French social security, then yes you would wind up with more money in the bank. The questions then are whether the commuting lifestyle is too high a price to pay, and whether this particular brand of cherry-picking will even be possible after Brexit.
Jul 11th 2018, 10:14 am
#12
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Re: Are we mad to consider move at this stage/general advice?
Too true, and you've come to the right place to find out the pros and cons in your particular situation, which your family in France isn't necessarily aware of.
Jul 11th 2018, 10:23 am
#13
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Re: Are we mad to consider move at this stage/general advice?
If you want a good mix, especially relaxed lifestyle and more property for your money, I can recommend Republic of Ireland. Anywhere away from Dublin can be a good alternative, as you are in the EU, can speak English, are close to Britain and overall it's very similar to Brittany in some parts. That's why a lot of French work and live here too and you can still easily go to France by Ferry.
Jul 12th 2018, 2:53 pm
#14
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Re: Are we mad to consider move at this stage/general advice?
I agree with what the others say about not really being any better off in France than in the UK. Just on a very high level view of it -think about it - any country that offers you UK/EU level of healthcare, schooling, police, armed services, social services and infrastructure is going to have to pay for it from somewhere and it's usually taxation. My experience of UK/FR was that you worked out with about the same amount of disposable income.
What is different of course, is the "french experience" of the big house in the country that you can afford after selling your UK property. At this point, I'd like to point out that should you want to move "home" after doing this, it's going to be difficult to sell your rambling mansion and also it won't have appreciated in value anything like the UK market will (probably ) have done.
As far as work....
your husband - of course lots of people do this and it takes careful management and an accountant who knows what they are doing. I can recommend an accountant based in Toulouse if you pm me. Just as a headsup - your husband can also set up a french "microentreprise" bill through portage salarial and get his french contributions sorted out. Again, get expert advice.
YOU!! Hindsight is always 20:20 isn't it? I would never advise any young woman ( and you are younger than me) to de-skill themselves. A French female lawyer would NEVER do it. ( ok some might). As a lawyer (avocat) in France you will be highly esteemed by the local population and have the chance of well paid work. I would definitely, definitely look into transferring your qualifications, concentrating on your french skills and getting a job. It is perfectly do-able within a relatively short time (?2-3 years)/ Before anyone starts on about language skills necessary, I did this and worked with special needs kids and their families after 3 years. I knew of doctors who did this and a couple of lawyers in Toulouse ( 4, off the top of my head).
Just to really lay it on for YOU. Divorce law in France is not the same as the UK, You also should probably know about the Hague convention and childhood abductions since this will affect anyone who moves with their family to a different country.
French culture has the women working - please don't make yourself a housebound servant struggling to run a huge house and gites. I'd get a lawyer's job ( with loads and loads of holidays since this is France) and pay someone to do the drudgery at home.
What is different of course, is the "french experience" of the big house in the country that you can afford after selling your UK property. At this point, I'd like to point out that should you want to move "home" after doing this, it's going to be difficult to sell your rambling mansion and also it won't have appreciated in value anything like the UK market will (probably ) have done.
As far as work....
your husband - of course lots of people do this and it takes careful management and an accountant who knows what they are doing. I can recommend an accountant based in Toulouse if you pm me. Just as a headsup - your husband can also set up a french "microentreprise" bill through portage salarial and get his french contributions sorted out. Again, get expert advice.
YOU!! Hindsight is always 20:20 isn't it? I would never advise any young woman ( and you are younger than me) to de-skill themselves. A French female lawyer would NEVER do it. ( ok some might). As a lawyer (avocat) in France you will be highly esteemed by the local population and have the chance of well paid work. I would definitely, definitely look into transferring your qualifications, concentrating on your french skills and getting a job. It is perfectly do-able within a relatively short time (?2-3 years)/ Before anyone starts on about language skills necessary, I did this and worked with special needs kids and their families after 3 years. I knew of doctors who did this and a couple of lawyers in Toulouse ( 4, off the top of my head).
Just to really lay it on for YOU. Divorce law in France is not the same as the UK, You also should probably know about the Hague convention and childhood abductions since this will affect anyone who moves with their family to a different country.
French culture has the women working - please don't make yourself a housebound servant struggling to run a huge house and gites. I'd get a lawyer's job ( with loads and loads of holidays since this is France) and pay someone to do the drudgery at home.
Jul 13th 2018, 6:41 am
#15
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Re: Are we mad to consider move at this stage/general advice?
+1
I have absolutely no training in socio-economics but my theory is that economies are self-balancing. The basic overall cost of living needs to be within reach of mainstream less-well-off households and that's the same in any country. Within that overall cost of living, the relative importance of different elements varies from one economy to another. UK level house prices simply wouldn't be supportable in France because household budgets are taken up with other things. (By law, total monthly loan repayments - house, car etc - cannot exceed 30% of monthly income; over that is considered unsustainable and lenders can't lend you more. So "crippling" mortgages are not an option.)
But as PF says, if you intend to learn French and transfer your career and work here and make a personal investment in France, that's different and good luck with it. My reservations arose because it seemed initially that cheap property was the only thing attracting you to France, and the intention was to continue working in the UK for now but you expected to be able to retire at 50 due to life being cheap here and being able to put more money aside. If that's how it worked all French professionals would retire at 50, but they don't.
I have absolutely no training in socio-economics but my theory is that economies are self-balancing. The basic overall cost of living needs to be within reach of mainstream less-well-off households and that's the same in any country. Within that overall cost of living, the relative importance of different elements varies from one economy to another. UK level house prices simply wouldn't be supportable in France because household budgets are taken up with other things. (By law, total monthly loan repayments - house, car etc - cannot exceed 30% of monthly income; over that is considered unsustainable and lenders can't lend you more. So "crippling" mortgages are not an option.)
But as PF says, if you intend to learn French and transfer your career and work here and make a personal investment in France, that's different and good luck with it. My reservations arose because it seemed initially that cheap property was the only thing attracting you to France, and the intention was to continue working in the UK for now but you expected to be able to retire at 50 due to life being cheap here and being able to put more money aside. If that's how it worked all French professionals would retire at 50, but they don't.
