EuroTrash

Well, would you not agree that having the automatic right to work in a country, makes it significantly easier to go to that and set up a business / apply for a job ?
As opposed to having find an employer who is willing to go to the trouble of making a case for needing to apply you, a TCN, because it wasn't possible to recruit a French or EU worker who has the same skillset?

scrubbedexpat095

As a young person I worked legally as an unskilled worker in both France (Paris) and Denmark (Copenhagen) a long time before Britain joined the common market, I even get pensions from both those countries so if you have enough initiative its certainly doable :-)

tooboocoo

For those with in-demand skills, it should still remain normal to expect the necessary support/investment from a potential employer to secure the required paperwork.
For those without skills, working in Europe will become more difficult, sure. But it was never a stroll in the park for this segment, given the mass of available labour from the Eastern EU states, Africa and elsewhere, willing to work for very little.
For those setting up a business - that's a whole different kettle of fish and the primary factors will remain viability, product, planning, funding and cash-flow so not much different.

LVC saying that it will be very difficult to move to the EU is what I challenged. I do agree that having the automatic right to work in a country, makes it [ ] easier to go to that [country?]. Those are not equivalent and yes, the second statement is easier to justify.

EuroTrash

I think you will find that immigration laws have changed quite a lot in the last 50 years. There are things you could do then that you can't do now, and vice versa.
If you have enough initiative and skills you can do most things. The question here is, whether it's become more difficult for the average person, and I think it has.

I honestly don't know what's to discuss. The point was that for Brits without niche skills working in the EU will become more difficult and you have just said you agree.

I don't know what your point is about the mass of available labour from the Eastern EU and Africa etc willing to work for very little. African workers don't have the automatic right to work in France to start with, but in any case nobody in France can be employed on less than minimum wage. It's a "level playing field" things that is one of the EU's red lines, it doesn't allow the use of cheap labour to undercut the competition.

For those setting up a business, on the standard visa I think you will find that the nminimum investment required for a TCN to set up a business in France is around 50k (that is off the top of my head).

If you look at US expat forums for instance I think you might be surprised at how difficult it is for US citizens to find a way to work in France.

In my own case - I came to France and set up a business as a freelance translator. No hoops to jump through beyond what a French person would have had to jump through. After Brexit, a brit won't be able to do that. If they're lucky they might get a passport talent visa, but that is not a foregone conclusion. France might decide it has enough translators and doesn't want any more.

tooboocoo

That's not what was originally said by LVC - he/she said "Ordinary people who need to work for a living will find it very difficult to move to the EU" which is what I challenged and what you subsequently chipped in on, with a different statement.

If you see no correlation between hundreds of thousands of eager arrivals from low-income backgrounds being available in France - whether with the 'right' to work or not - and a dearth of steady, unskilled work for young Brits (who nonetheless expect their 'living wage') then perhaps someone else can better explain it to you. Do you really think there's no-one picking fruit, washing dishes or sweeping floors 'under the table'?

By the way, the "level playing field" and "red lines" - dramatic phrases from the brexit tussle - aren't really a feature of the EU wages and employment environment. Did you know that the minimum wage in Slovakia is EUR3,33 per hour, compared to France's 10,15?

EuroTrash

You say "whether with the 'right' to work or not" as if it made no difference, which with respect I think is a cop out because I thought we were specifically talking about 'rights'. I agree that if we're talking about illegal immigration and working on the black, then what is "legally" difficult or permissible is irrelevant, all that matters is that you're desperate enough to go outside the law and live in a kind of twilight zone where you don't officially exist and you have no rights or entitlements. That's not exactly the French dream for many Brits I don't think.

I don't see why what I said is so very different? I regard myself as an ordinary person. I have a good university degree but I don't happen to have s niche skillset, translators are ten a penny. As an EU citizen I had no problems in legally moving to live and work in France. After Brexit this would perhaps be possible but it would be difficult..
For a UK electrician / plumber / shop assistant, who I would also regard as an ordinary person, they have next to no chance of finding work in France because even if a French employer wanted to give them a job, they would never get permission to recruit them for as long as there are lots of French and EU jobseekers who could do the job perfectly well - which there will be for the foreseeable future. So for them, very difficult is putting it mildly.
National minimum wage is set by each country at a level appropriate for national cost of living and other considerations, it's not dictated by the EU. Minimum standards in other aspects of worker protection such as paid holidays, maximum working hours, working conditions etc - are set by the EU. For example agency temp workers in the UK didn't used to be entitled to holiday pay until the EU directive was applied.

I'm not sure what you're not getting about the simple fact that losing the automatic right to work in a country, makes it a lot more difficult for the average law abiding person with no exceptional skills, to work there.

tooboocoo

I'm not sure what you're not getting about the fact that having a treaty "right" to work in another country has never been, for those such as your shop assistant example, a guarantee of either a job nor an acceptable/dignified level of subsistence.
Someone skilled/educated enough to be proficient in a foreign language at translator level is not, in my opinion, an "ordinary person" but a skilled worker.

With that, I'm no longer arguing this with you. Have a pleasant Boxing Day!

EuroTrash

That may be your opinion but the fact remains that during the years Brits enjoyed freedom of movement, many hundreds of average folk such as semi skilled sparkies, plumbers and if you like shop assistants, did choose to take advantage of that right, did move to France, did find work and did live here with a dignified and acceptable standard of living, with their wages supplemented in some cases by French state benefits to which as EU workers they were perfectly entitled.

No, having the right is not a "guarantee" - but it is an opportunity. I don't know if you know this book https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/...-checkout-girl . It's written by a British university graduate who moved to France and got a job as a checkout girl. You could say it was an achievement for her to get a job at all, or you could dismiss it as not acceptable or dignified. But she did it and she got a book out of it. Maybe not a brilliant work of literature if we're honest, but, it's an example of an opportunity that was open to the author to expand her horizons, and she took it, and her life was enriched by it. And that kind of opportunity is now closed to young people in her situation.

Sycamore123

Thank you all for this information! I will take some time to read it- all very interesting.
I was a few months too young to have voted in the Brexit vote, but can see it will definitely have a huge impact on future plans.
I will continue researching, and hopefully have a positive update in a few years!

dmu

Apart from the question of "rights", French accounting is different from the UK and, like plumbers, electricians, etc..., it's likely you'd have to retrain, even if you are a qualified Chartered Accountant.
As for your partner, it would be essential to be fluent in French in order to manage any business, let alone a hotel. She should start seriously learning as from now....
A propos, France isn't a partner-friendly country and you would be considered as two separate individuals in all fields (particularly property ownership). Take a look at the "Partner status" thread in the Read Me: Moving to France FAQs above, and possibly consider getting married or PACSd before you arrive in France.
Good luck with your dream, but research, research, research...!

Sycamore123

Thank you, very helpful. I have decided to also consider a few other countries to help in my search

morpeth

I agree being certified or qualified in France not being fluent in French is quite unlikely - but being fluent in french hardly necessary always for a shop or hotel- the experience of thousand of immigrant owned shops demonstrate this clearly. maybe a Briish subsidiary in france might be a potential IF you become fluent in french, and demonstrate some study of french accounting which has some quirks to be sure. american or english companies in france can get quite frustrated dealing with french accountants and their work habits.

EuroTrash

I think anyone who has experience of setting up and running a business in France would agree that not having enough French to understand the business rules and obligations puts you at a significant disadvantage, not only in getting the admin right because you can pay an accountant to do that, but more importantly in making strategic business choices when you may not have fully grasped the implications of this or that decision. Just look at the many Brits who blindly signed up as micro entrepreneurs and then discovered it was totally unsuitable for their business model.
Plus with hotels there may be obligatory hygiene and H&S qualifications for which you would need to attend a course and pass an assessment in French.
I think that in general, TCN immigrants to France tend to speak good French. In some cases you need to speak decent French in order to get a visa.