hasen

How much I earn seems to be way less important than proving it. If it was just a matter of providing bank statements that would be fine but ET was saying it has to be into a French bank account and I'm not sure whether bank statements are acceptable anyway. Also what other proof is required for self employment? Like I was saying I don't even have clients that can give references. If it's just bank statements then maybe it's no problem.

You're right no one would want to move to a country to live in poverty so doesn't make much sense to even check that. If someone does then it's their own funeral as they say. Not sure why you think I'd be on the poverty threshold, did I give that impression? I've no idea what the requirements are for France, for UK you need £60k in savings and I never met anyone in the UK with that much saved so that would put them in the comparably rich category. So since they don't tell you anything I've no idea what my earnings need to be. My problem has always been proving my earnings and employment.

Engineer? Fine. Instagram millionaire model? Hard to prove anything....

dmu

As already said, you must set up a French business structure and open a French Bank account. The Authorities don't want references from clients, they want proof that you've registered at your regional Chambre de Commerce et d'Industrie as per:

Micro-entrepreneur, devenir micro-entrepreneur - CCI.fr

and will be paying S.S. contributions.

EuroTrash

"OK why the sudden change of tune?"
What change of tune?
Regarding the intial visa application, what I said was
But your obligations don't end when you have a visa; if a person living in France wants to run a business they have to follow French business rules, one of which is, transactions through a French bank account. It's an issue that will have to be faced.

"It can be very hard to prove earnings and employment" - not here, because the rules are designed to ensure that everything is transparent. If you can't prove employment with a contract and payslips, or earning by showing your accounts, then it's pretty much proof that something is not above board, because if you follow the rules you will automatically have documentary proof. France has a very practical and logical approach. All earned income comes from somewhere and is earned by doing something, and these days there is always an electronic transaction trail, so everything is provable and checkable unless the waters are deliberately muddied. Are you literally saying that you have money coming in but you have no way of knowing exactly how much or where from? I think France would politely tell you to get a grip, because that is no way to run a business. Alternatively, if in fact your income is unearned, ie not linked to any specific business activity, it may be that France would in fact class it as unearned income, in which case it would be treated totally differently and your status in France would be "inactif".

"why bother to check. Better to do an IQ test. Just don't grant unemployment benefit to anyone on this type of visa seems a much simpler system. If people are going to France literally to die then what's the problem. That's why in China they don't check 'cos it doesn't seem to serve a purpose."
DMU is right you know, you have to get out of the "this is how China does things" mentality. France is not China, it has different standards. Once France grants you the right to reside, it accepts responsibility for your social welfare, it's back to the droits et devoirs thing - you meet your obligations to the state and the state will meet its obligations to you. France aims to be a country that is good to live in for everyone who lives here, it does not want to be a country with a fringe society of beggars and starving people. Of course they exist but it is ashamed of them and certainly doesn't do anything to encourage more. Do you let tramps into your nice house and turn a blind eye as they stink and moan and die quietly in the corners, wouldn't it spoil your nice home for you just a bit? Letting people in and then turning their back on them and saying 'it's your funeral, get on with it' is not how it works here. The French don't care so much about material wealth but they do care quality of life and social responsibility and integration. They're proud of their country and their society, and they don't want it diluted by people living here but not part of it and not sharing their ideals. If you don't want to be part of it or don't feel you can be part of it, well maybe France just isn't for you.

EuroTrash

As dmu says, there's nothing complicated about proving self employment in France, it's black and white. If you are self employed then you will necessarily be doing the things self employed people are required to do - you will have your activity registered under the appropriate activity code, you have your siret number, you're keeping your accounts and declaring your income and paying your cotisations and income tax - or you're not doing those things. If you are, France will already have you on record and all you need to prove it is provide copies of paperwork that has been issued to you, along with ID. If you're not on the system and you don't have the paperwork, ie you are either not working at all or you are working "on the black", then there is no way France will ever accept you are self employed because the fact if there is no record of you having a siret number and paying cotisations, etc, that proves conclusively that you are not..

EuroTrash

What? That's the whole trouble, they do. You must surely be aware of the EU's massive problem with economic migrants. They know that it is EU policy to defend human rights and not to let people live in poverty, so they think if they can just get to the EU they will be treated humanely. They don't understand what a burden they are and that the EU simply hasn't got unlimited resources to become responsible for all the needy people in the world.
I don't know exactly where China stands on hyman rights but from what I read, not great.

hasen

It was this statement "If you are in a position to support yourselves sustainably and pay your way, all above board, you will get a visa." This is clearly not the case since I can obviously support myself or I wouldn't be applying. It was just that previously you were explaining how difficult it would be to prove earnings and employment, particularly for my Chinese wife, and then you said this suggesting as long as you physically can afford to survive they'll give you the visa. So it seemed like a change of tune. Great if it were really that simple - to be honest it should be in an ideal world!

Yes of course I have earnings going into a UK bank account, my wife has earnings going into a Chinese bank account. But according to you they have to be going into a French bank account. Therefore this statement is not true: "If you are in a position to support yourselves sustainably and pay your way, all above board, you will get a visa." since we are in a position to support ourselves but unless they accept UK and Chinese bank accounts as proof then we won't get the visa.

If all they need is bank accounts from any country and no other proof then fine, I can certainly do that.

That's why I suggested an IQ test is better. The starving beggars don't want to be starving beggars any more than France does. If they went there to do that then they're clearly not very smart. They probably could have stayed in their own country and not needed to be starving beggars at all. Anyway there's not much point talking about this, I just pointed out it doesn't make that much sense. It's also not as simple as it sounds to prove your employment and income and give references etc especially with the kinds of odd jobs people have these days like 'youtuber' or something. But if that's the way it is then that's the way it is unfortunately.

hasen

Ok I think the confusion is there are two people here. I can move to France no problem and then start doing all this, but what about my wife proving her employment and earnings before she goes to France?

hasen

So basically I go to France without having to prove anything since that is my right as an EU citizen and then start doing all these things? You're talking about proof after I've lived there for however many months. Then my income is proven, but then how does my wife prove her employment and income before she comes to France? Clearly it has to be established in advance before granting the visa. Since she's the one that really needs the visa after all.

My earnings would not go into a French bank account though since I have some business with China too so there's no way to have them link with French bank accounts, like I was saying before. Obviously for her earnings that is the same.

EuroTrash

Not to labour the point but the clue was meant to be in the "all above board". A French resident running a business that ignores French fiscal rules on accountability etc, is not exactly 'all above board", it's bending the rules.

I also found it hard to get my head round the French mindset but after a while it does start to make sense. When I moved to France, the simplified "auto entrepreneur" route had just been introduced as a kind of experiment to see if it worked. Thousands of people set up as AEs. After a couple of years, the scheme was reviewed and there were those in the government who were in favour of pulling the plug because they claimed it had led to an increase in "precarious" employment. In the traditonal French mindset, it is better to be unemployed and supported by the state, than to be in precarious employment, ie employment that doesn't provide a secure income month to month and may not be making full pension contributions. I actually wrote to my conseiller about this and had quite a good discussion with her in the end, it opened my eyes to the French take on it.
Just like, the zero hours contract that the UK loves, would never be entertained here. You may not agree with this but the French do, and it's their country - their rules.

hasen

The IQ test seems like it would possibly yield better results - harder to fake too than loads of documents lol. It's the policy itself that's being manipulated though. It seems weird to have a human right not to let people live in poverty since it's their own doing. Especially since they probably could have been fine in their own country. But people will do that, like the free healthcare in the UK is constantly being manipulated.

Yeah not great at all. I don't really have anything good to say about China but the visa system seems to work ok.

christmasoompa

Lots of self employed people manage to apply for spousal visas for the UK. Even an Instagram model should be able to provide evidence of income, unless of course they're not declaring their earnings to avoid tax. I am self employed, don't have a salary, or boss, and don't have any contracts etc, but could still meet the requirements if needed (I don't - hubby is British too!) via things like bank statements, copies of my SA302's and accounts, etc.

Do you have nothing official to prove your income? I've no idea how it works in China so can only assume you don't have anything at all?

EuroTrash

I keep trying to explain this as I see it, but it seems to keep getting lost in communication.
She doesn't have to prove her employment and income. As you say, by definition she can't possibly be working in France before she has a visa. To get a spouse visa, all she has to prove is that she is the spouse of an EU citizen who is legally resident in France.
What has to be proved is that YOU are correctly exercising your EU right to freedom of movement in France, and that you can support your wife if she comes here. Once that is established then she can join you. It doesn't matter whether or not she is working or whether or not she has a penny to her name, if she is your wife and you live here then your wife also has the right to live here.

Re establishing your own status, these links might help, if I've correctly interpreted the gist of how you earn an income.
https://blogbuster.fr/adsense/declar...le-adsense.htm
https://www.portail-autoentrepreneur...dsense-youtube
https://www.toutsurmesfinances.com/i...-internet.html
and I'm sure google will find you many similar articles. Obviously French residents do earn money this way, obviously France does have a system to deal with it, so it's just going to be a case of finding out what has to be done and jumping through whatever hoops have to be jumped through. Probably best to talk to your local tax office - tax offices are helpful in France.

dmu

Deep breath.....
Your wife's visa will depend on YOUR eligibility for Résidence in France. She can start her own thing after she's arrived.
Your own earnings will have to go into French bank accounts (one business, one personal), otherwise you won't be taken seriously, and neither will she if her Visa application is based on a husband who isn't working legally and therefore has no healthcare coverage, and hasn't any money coming regularly into a French Bank.
We are advising you on the basis of official info, we aren't trying to put you off just to be awkward, and certainly won't encourage you to come to France if you refuse to follow French rules.
Fore-warned is fore-armed
Sorry, but brick walls come to mind. I'll take a break....

P.S. quick comment on ET's latest reply which crossed with mine. I'm too old to understand what you do for a living, and your local Tax Office and CCI will advise, but firstly you've got to arrive in France to set everything in motion. You haven't acknowledged that this is the first step.
Over and out....

hasen

People are saying different things unfortunately. DMU said this very early on: "I'm not sure how your wife's later application will be regarded if she intends her earnings to remain in China....." If her earnings don't matter then why would this matter at all?

In the application form it just asks how she will support herself. There's nothing to say she can't use her own earnings. Are you sure that's the case? Otherwise one person's earnings has to count for two people and we don't even know what their standards are for earnings per person. Also a person with effectively no job looks worse since what if she goes to France and then we get a divorce? Surely it's better if she can prove she has enough to live on too which she certainly should be entitled to do.

Also you said previously as long as you earn enough to support yourself you can get a visa. So she doesn't have to be physically working in France surely. Since the application form just asks how she will support herself...it surely can't be that vague to leave out that she must be working in France. Surely you could even put - my parents will send me money each month? Who knows, it's not specific.

hasen

That conflicts with what you said earlier unfortunately: "I'm not sure how your wife's later application will be regarded if she intends her earnings to remain in China....." So that's confusing. I realise you're not trying to fool me or something but it's all quite confusing. I was under the impression her earnings count too since she earns more than enough to live in France - why wouldn't they even count? Also the application form doesn't say anything about that. If it's all based on one person then that one person has to earn enough for two people. Also a person with effectively no job looks worse since what if she goes to France and then we get a divorce? Surely it's better if she can prove she has enough to live on too which she certainly should be entitled to do.