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TVA on architect's fees

TVA on architect's fees

Old Dec 10th 2014, 10:29 am
  #1  
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Default TVA on architect's fees

What would the rate be for architect's fees? I am at the very beginning of trying to make an extension to my house. A French speaking architect came with English speaking person who says he is also an architect ( but English). He is more like a project manager - but I have only had bills from the people he has arranged to do preliminary work. I presume he is then getting a percentage commisssion from them. I had already been sent the full bill for the architect's work for making the plan and getting planning permission - which I accepted. The bill stated half to be paid in advance - which I was happy to do. As I was about to write cheque for the 50% payment - the English person said - "they forgot to add the TVA" - which 20% more - which I paid. But looking at the bill there is no TVA number but there is O.d.A No. nat ***** and a No. Sirat. Should a TVA number be on a bill if one is being charged? Thanks
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Old Dec 10th 2014, 11:30 am
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Default Re: TVA on architect's fees

Well there should be TVA at 20% on an architect's bill and there should be the TVA number which will start "FR 99" (but not actually 99). The rest of the TVA number is the same as the Siren.
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Old Dec 10th 2014, 12:37 pm
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Default Re: TVA on architect's fees

My accountant told me I have to, by law, put my Siret number on my invoice. Along with a multitude of other paragraphs. I also have to put my TVA number (which doesn't begin FR 99 for me btw)

I don't put TVA on it though, I don't add 20% etc.

I would ask the question. If he isn't a qualified architect then you may or may not have problems. I don't know about that. But if you did work in the UK without proper design you'd be in trouble.
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Old Dec 10th 2014, 1:12 pm
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Default Re: TVA on architect's fees

Thanks for the replies - very helpful.
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Old Dec 10th 2014, 2:17 pm
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Default Re: TVA on architect's fees

I have a British friend who is a self-employed architect near Toulouse , so from reading your post a few alarm bells are ringing.

Yes, Siret number MUST be on the invoice. TVA may not have to be applied if they are auto-entrepreneur, so you should ask about this.

What's happening about the architect's insurance? Is this included in the bill? It may be if they aren't AE (but then you will be charged TVA) but if they are AE then you may find that you pay it yourself and it's a hefty sum.

I haven't confirmed any of this with my friend, it's just what I've heard her talking about over the last couple of years. So pm me if you have further questions.
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Old Dec 10th 2014, 3:03 pm
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Default Re: TVA on architect's fees

Thanks very much peitefrancaise for your post - very helpful. I shall ask whether the French architect is an auto entrpreneur or not and whether architect's insurance is included on the bill - it is not written on the original invoice. May get back to you later - if you don't mind!
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Old Dec 10th 2014, 3:12 pm
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Default Re: TVA on architect's fees

Although petitefrancaise is absolutely correct I wouldn't be terribly worried about architect's insurance. I say this because architects in France do not usually produce technical plans (or "plans d'execution" in French) - these are normally done by an engineer and its not really very common. In fact, unless you're living space is over 170m2 you don't even need an architect - anyone can do the plans, even the owner.
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Old Dec 10th 2014, 3:31 pm
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Default Re: TVA on architect's fees

Originally Posted by InVinoVeritas View Post
Although petitefrancaise is absolutely correct I wouldn't be terribly worried about architect's insurance. I say this because architects in France do not usually produce technical plans (or "plans d'execution" in French) - these are normally done by an engineer and its not really very common. In fact, unless you're living space is over 170m2 you don't even need an architect - anyone can do the plans, even the owner.
Hi IVV, I think we're both right!

I'm waiting for my friend to reply to my email to her...
BUT I've checked online about what she told me and if the extension to the OP's house takes the surface area above 170m2 then they must have architect's plans for the permis de construire.
(L'intervention d'un architecte est également obligatoire pour des travaux d'agrandissement exigeant un permis de construire qui portent la surface existante au-delà de 170 m2.)


Once this is done, then l'ordre del'architectes insurance has to be paid which depends on the size of the building project. The architect has to plug in a load of project details into the insurance calculator on l'ordre de l'architecte which will then give them the cost of the insurance.

Try googling the "architect's name architecte"
on societe.com you should get their business registration details and registered business address.
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Old Dec 10th 2014, 3:49 pm
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Default Re: TVA on architect's fees

Thanks for that information - just written to ask about the architect's insurance, whether I get any! I knew there had to be builder's insurance. I suppose it's logical plans must be right! No mention has been made of an engineer making any plans. Someone competent needs to get all the paperwork which I understand is extensive to comply with what building regs. in France require - I thought the architect did that.
The original Devis of the architect is as follows -
1) Consultation services techniques de la Marie de ..... - Urbanisme, Voirie, ABF, Assainissement et eaux pluviales etc
2) Realisation du dossiers de Permis de construire -
PCMl 1 Un plan de situation du terrain,
PCMl2 Un plan de masse des constructions a edifier ou a modifier,
PCMl3 Un plan en coupe du terrain et de la construction
PMCl4 Une notice decrivant la terrain et presentant le projet
PMCl5 Un plan des facades et des toitures
PMCl6 Un document graphique permettant d'apprecier l'insertion du projet de construction dans son environnement
PCMl7 Une photographie permettant de situer le terrain dans l'environnement proche
PCMl8 Une photographie permettant de situer le terrain dan le paysage lointain.
Sorry for long post!
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Old Dec 10th 2014, 4:14 pm
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Default Re: TVA on architect's fees

Don't make the mistake of assuming it must be similar to the UK! For instance there is no equivalent to building regs in France. Planning permission does not engage the Mairie in any responsibility whatsoever as regards the suitability of the build itself. For that reason builders must be insured.
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Old Dec 12th 2014, 7:24 am
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Default Re: TVA on architect's fees

If it is of any help, I have just received the invoice from my architect for some preliminary work on building an extension. The invoice is called NOTE D'HONORAIRE. There is a comment on the invoice saying: MONTANT HT des honoraires restant du TVA non applicable, article 293 du CGI. I have paid the amount shown HT.

There is no siret number on the invoice.
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Old Dec 12th 2014, 1:50 pm
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Default Re: TVA on architect's fees

Presumably this is because he is below the TVA threshold which is a little surprising if he is a registered architect but it's not impossible. The siret isn't obligatory on an invoice but details of his decennale insurance should be on there.
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