Kazza23

Hello .....

I'm still navigating how to use the forum, so hopefully this is the correct way to post a thread... apologies if not..... brain isn't what it used to be... lol

I wondered if anyone has specific knowledge on starting a business in France, say for instance a business working from home... online.....for instance..

Would you register as a Micro-entrepreneur or an Auto Entrepreneur ?

I have looked over all the relevant information and still can't work it out....so thought to ask on here as so many of you have good knowledge about this kind of stuff...... Thank you in advance... !

EuroTrash

Yep, top marks for navigating the forum
Bit confused by the title of the thread though. The big difference Brexit makes to Brits is that they won't have the automatic right to work in France after Brexit. France's rules and regulations about starting a business won't change.
Micro entrepreneur is one option for freelancers / self employed people. It's the simplest option but it doesn't suit every business model. Basically, the reason it is simple is because there is very little accounting involved, it's a one size fits all solution. Instead of offsetting your actual expenses and overheads and outgoings like you do for other types of business structure and paying social charges and income tax as a percentage of profit, you pay your charges as a percentage of turnover. Its big disadvantage is that there is no flexibility. The percentages have been set so that an average business in that sector, with average expenses, would be no better off and no worse off on micro entrepreneur than on a conventional business regime. If your expenses are lower than average you will be better off on ME but if your expenses are higher than average you would be worse off. Taken to extremes, for instance if you subcontract work or rent premises or have major outgoings for whatever reason, it would technically be possible to end up paying out more in charges than you earned in profit. If that's the case, obviously you need to choose a business structure where your social charges and income tax are calculated on your profit not your turnover. So you do need to do the basic maths
But if your outgoings are near enough in line with the built-in expenses to turnover ratio (which from is memory around 70% for resellers eg eBay traders, and 35% or thereabouts for most other activities) micro entrepreneur is certainly the simplest option, easy to set up and easy to run once you know the rules. But, after Brexit British passport holders will need a visa giving them the right to work in France before they can set up a business, micro entrepreneur doesn't bypass that.
Hope that helps but if you have any specific questions, don't be shy of asking.

Kazza23

Thank you ....... I'm gathering then from what you are saying is.....if the business has a low income / outgoingings, then micro (ME) is the best as that amount is set on your intake and profits but if you have a large intake and outgoings then the Auto (AE) might be better for a growing business.... ?
Which leads me to another question. Would an online business you have in the uk count as you being self employed in France, or do you have to start a business actually in France for it to be taken into account ?
Thanks again for taking time to answer......

Listen Very Carefully

As has already been stated after Brexit freedom of movement ends Brits will be in a similar position as say Americans or any non EU citizen That means you will have to have permission to move to France and have to prove that you will have minimum income (currently €839 per month per couple) or that you have a job to go to At present moving to France post Brexit and starting a business is going to be difficult If you have an existing business in the UK then perhaps you could show that the business is a runner and making a profit but it is all a bit vague at the moment to be honest. In respect of living in France and running an online business this is a question that comes up regularly and the answer is that you will have to register the business in France Obviously you do not say what it is but of course with the end freedom of movement of goods etc may mean that taxes etc will be imposed or you may not be able to continue the business at all eg financial services etc. Brexit is unfortunately going to end a lot of peoples hopes and dreams of moving to Europe but keep doing the research and perhaps in the next few months things may become clearer In the meantime look here for advice www.brexit.gouv.fr and keep hoping that things turn out ok for you

EuroTrash

No no no.
ME and AE are not two separate schemes.
The auto entrepreneur scheme was launched in 2009 (I think). It was tweaked a bit each year, and in (I think) 2014 the whole scheme was reviewed and a whole raft of changes were brought it. Following these changes the scheme was renamed to Micro Entrepreneur, I guess to reflect the fact that it had changed almost beyond recognition from the auto entrepreneur scheme as it was originally launched. Some folk still refer to it as auto entrepreneur and the websites that had been established haven't all been renamed. But whichever you call it, there is only one scheme.
Essentially, regardless of the level of turnover, what matters is your expense : turnover ratio.
Eg turnover = 20 000€, minus 25% charges, leaves you with 16 000, minus expenses 3 000, profit = 13 000, OK.
Turnover 20 000€, minus 25% charges, leaves you with 16 000, minus expenses 10 000, profit = 3 000. You shouldn't be on micro entrepreneur.

LVC has explained this. If you're self employed, you and your business are one entity. If you live in France your business has to be registered in France, compliant with French rules, and you need to be paying your tax and social security in France, Otherwise as far as France is concerned you are working on the black, ie working unregistered with no SIRET number and not paying your dues, which is regarded as social security fraud.
From the UK point of view, if you're not resident in the UK you're not entitled to NHS healthcare or social security. Except in certain circumstances you're not allowed to continue paying NICs once you leave the UK.
Hope that is all a bit clearer now.

Kazza23

Thank you..... Think I understand a little better than before.... so unless i am able to sustain an income sufficient from being ME/AE then its pointless doing it.... If i understand what you are saying...
I would be leaving the uk, completely, to live in France full time.....will not be going back unless my children take me in a french urn....lol ..
So (registering in France) as self employed with an online business..... I would then pay due taxes etc So that sounds fine so far....

The information I came across did mentioned that if you earn under a certain ratio then you only pay a percentage of your earning... the lowest being 8%.... is this correct does anyone know. ?

You mentioned that the income needed for a couple was 839 euro..... do you know what income is needed for a single person.. I don't retire until 2024.

I did wonder if my income was only 5,300 each year, would this be sufficient under the rules of being a registered self employed person in France..?
Thanks again...

Listen Very Carefully

The minimum income for a single person is €559 per month
You may also want to research "passeport talent"
The 8% you refer to relates to health charges that you pay to join the french health system Do not confuse this with taxes social contributions etc

EuroTrash

If you're in France before the end of transition, you need to be clear what your status is. Depending on your status (worker, inactif, student etc), different criteria will be used to assess whether you are correctly exercising freedom of movement when you apply for your residence permit..

The 839€ per month is the income threshold that economically inactive/early retired people are supposed to meet.

But if you're self employed, the rules for inactifs don't apply to you. What you need to prove is that you meet the EU's definition of a "worker", ie that your business activity is genuine and effective and not on such a small scale as to be marginal or ancillary. Basically you need to show that you're putting in a reasonable amount of hours, your business is sustainable and you're earning enough live on. If it's a brand new business and you're not earning much they may look at its potential to develop in the future. But, not many people would be able to live on 5 300€ a year, and there's a danger that they would regard it as a spare time/hobby business, in which case you wouldn't be classed as a worker. Do you in fact have other income streams?

I'm not sure what you're thinking of here.
On micro entrepreneur you pay the appropriate rate of cotisations for your category, starting from the first euro you earn. If you're a reseller, I think your cotisations are around 15% of turnover. So if you invoice for 10€, you pay 1€50 cotisations. If you invoice for 100€ you pay 15€ cotisations etc. If you're a consultant or an artisan the rate is around 24%, so if you invoice for 10€ you pay 2€40 cotisations, if you invoice for 100€ you pay 24€ cotisations; if you invoice for 1 000 you pay 240, if you invoice for 10 000 you pay 2 400 cotisations. It really is that simple.

Are you perhaps getting confused with the healthcare cotisations that inactifs pay on their unearned income, which I believe is 8% on their income above a certain threshold?

Kazza23

So basically I need an income of 559 eruo per month, to be seen as having enough to live on.... I understand savings do not count as an income, by reading other posts..... Also it would be an easier transition to be in France registering a business before the end of year.
Yes do agree with 'Listen very carefully' with regards to some hopes and dreams...

I do intend on moving back to France no matter what the outcome........ I am just at the moment trying to work out the best way to approach it, weighing up all info details, which might benefit me the most or give me less hassle etc....
Thanks again for your help.... very much appreciated...

EuroTrash

That's the best way to do it.
All too often people decide on a plan and then they start their research, but that's the wrong way round. They say "I want to do x, y and z, how do I do it?" and quite often the answer is, you can't do that, or, you could do that but it would be difficult and there are better options.
Far better to do the research first and then make a plan.
All the info is online, you will probably find these sites useful:
https://www.service-public.fr/partic...osdroits/F2651
https://brexit.gouv.fr/sites/brexit/...itannique.html
https://www.ameli.fr/orne/assure/dro...rselle-maladie
Bon courage