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Starting a business in France

Starting a business in France

Old Dec 19th 2015, 8:01 pm
  #16  
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Default re: Starting a business in France

Ah OK - so the one-person version of a SAS, like an EURL or and EIRL are (I think) one person versions of a SARL.I don't think it's a widely-adopted structure, or at least you don't hear much about it. SAS on the other hand is very widely adopted.
The main difference seems to be that as director you would be a salarié, ie higher cotisations but better social protection.
If that's what suits you best, go for it and please feed back on SASU on the forum.

Thinking about it - apart from the subcontracting issue, you could consider setting up as a micro for the first year and converting to SASU, if that's what you want, after that. Micro would be an easier and cheaper way to get started, in fact that is really what AE was created for, as an easy way for businesses to start up. The original expectation was that businesses would remain AEs for a year or two and then convert to a different statut, although in fact, as it turned out, many stay on AE for year after year.

Last edited by EuroTrash; Dec 19th 2015 at 8:30 pm.
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Old Dec 19th 2015, 8:30 pm
  #17  
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Default re: Starting a business in France

Originally Posted by EuroTrash
Ah OK - so the one-person version of a SAS, like an EURL or and EIRL are (I think) one person versions of a SARL.I don't think it's a widely-adopted structure, or at least you don't hear much about it.
The main difference seems to be that as director you would be a salarié, ie higher cotisations but better social protection.
If that's what suits you best, go for it and please feed back on SASU on the forum.
I haven't looked at the site, but I wouldn't recommend setting up anything resembling an Sàrl. Before AEs etc... were created, I became Gérante of an Sàrl, mainly because the healthcare coverage and pensions for self-employed "liberaux" ("professionals") were peanuts at the time.
Be aware that the paperwork is horrific; about 50% of my declared salary went into côtisations (contributions) both as employer and employee, meaning that I had to bill AND BE PAID half of my salary before I could start putting money in my pocket. Not to mention various professional taxes, and not forgetting that I paid income tax on my DECLARED income, not the money I earned.
But I can now enjoy a decent Pension!!
P.S. @TH: I kept the French acronyms/terms as there was no point in finding an English equivalent. It's the sort of vocabulary that any one setting up a business must learn anyway......
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Old Dec 20th 2015, 8:49 am
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Default re: Starting a business in France

Originally Posted by EuroTrash
I've never heard of a SASU, although I've heard of an SAS. I translate it as 'a simplified joint stock company' and pretend I know what it means - but I don't really

here's the link I was given Créer une SASU : quels sont les avantages ? | Le coin des entrepreneurs
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Old Dec 20th 2015, 9:53 am
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Default re: Starting a business in France

Is there an echo on here ?

Or did you not click on page 2 ?
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Old Dec 21st 2015, 7:42 am
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Default re: Starting a business in France

Just doing some maths here. If one is AE or Sarl here are one's cotisations calculated on your gross turnover/income or are there no/low tax thresholds? Eg in the NL the first (I think) E12K of my income as an AE was tax free. Many thanks in advance to the helpful people on this forum.
TH
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Old Dec 21st 2015, 8:19 am
  #21  
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Default re: Starting a business in France

Originally Posted by TextualHealing
Just doing some maths here. If one is AE or Sarl here are one's cotisations calculated on your gross turnover/income or are there no/low tax thresholds? Eg in the NL the first (I think) E12K of my income as an AE was tax free. Many thanks in advance to the helpful people on this forum.
TH
Can't help re AEs, but as employer/employee in an Sàrl, the côtisations are a percentage of the gross salary. As "gérant" you would also pay into a "Caisse des Cadres" (executives' pension fund) and this is also a percentage of the nominal salary. This comes to approx. 50% of the gross income, and everything must be clearly marked on the payslip (= need to have an accountant who'll be up to date with the ever-changing percentages).
As a "cadre" you wouldn't be able to give yourself a low income in order to pay less in côtisations, the URSSAF would look at it askance.... You'd therefore earn enough to pay Income Tax....
Hope this gives an idea, I don't think things have changed much since my days!
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Old Dec 21st 2015, 9:11 am
  #22  
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Default re: Starting a business in France

For micro (AE) - nope, very simple, no lower thresholds. You turnover 10€, you declare 10€, you pay cotisations - and income tax if you opt to do so - on 10€, so 2,53€ or whatever. Turnover 1000€, declare 1000€, pay 253€ or whatever. Simples
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Old Dec 21st 2015, 7:36 pm
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Default re: Starting a business in France

Originally Posted by TextualHealing
If one is AE or Sarl here are one's cotisations calculated on your gross turnover/income or are there no/low tax thresholds? Eg in the NL the first (I think) E12K of my income as an AE was tax free. Many thanks in advance to the helpful people on this forum.
TH
On second thoughts, are you actually asking about cotisations or income tax?
As said, cotisations start at the first euro. Income tax is a separate issue. You can opt to pay your income tax as you go along, starting at the first euro, at a lower percentage. Or you can opt not to do that, and instead declare it untaxed as part of your household income at the end of the year. If you do that, income tax will be calculated in the normal way, with the normal tax allowances and tax bands being applied.
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Old Dec 21st 2015, 7:49 pm
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Default re: Starting a business in France

Originally Posted by dmu
As a "cadre" you wouldn't be able to give yourself a low income in order to pay less in côtisations, the URSSAF would look at it askance....
I don't think that bit is right, dmu. As a gerant, I always paid myself a low wage and took bonuses or dividends if there were profits and didn't if there weren't. For the first 5 years I didn't take any salary at all, just expenses.
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Old Dec 21st 2015, 7:57 pm
  #25  
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Originally Posted by EuroTrash
On second thoughts, are you actually asking about cotisations or income tax?
... income tax will be calculated in the normal way, with the normal tax allowances and tax bands being applied.
I was a bit confused, too, which is why I added that Income Tax is paid on the declared salary, but forgot to specify that it's the net salary, after the côtisations have been deducted, which is declared, not the gross. Income Tax is paid on this net salary however much you actually put in your pocket.
I also didn't think to mention the Professional Taxes to be paid by the company (i.e. the gérant), probably (as far as I remember) a percentage of the turnover. I can't specify which Taxes are levied at present, as their names changed continually and new ones have probably been created since my day.
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Old Dec 21st 2015, 8:04 pm
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Default re: Starting a business in France

Originally Posted by InVinoVeritas
I don't think that bit is right, dmu. As a gerant, I always paid myself a low wage and took bonuses or dividends if there were profits and didn't if there weren't. For the first 5 years I didn't take any salary at all, just expenses.
This is what I was advised by the Expert-Comptable. A Gérant with responsibilities can't be expected to be earning a low wage and as far as I remember, there's a "minimum" wage for a Cadre.
I, too, lived through "lean" times! I presume you, too, paid Income Tax on what you didn't receive?
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Old Dec 21st 2015, 8:13 pm
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I too was advised by an expert-comptable. As a gerant you have an obligation that the company trades within its means and does not incur unnecessary debts - paying yourself more than the company can afford seems just plain wrong to me. I only ever paid tax on what I actually received.
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Old Dec 21st 2015, 8:33 pm
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But if you're a salarié you have to have an employment contract with the company, and the company has obligations towards you as it would towards any salarié - it can't pay less than minimum wage (or indeed as dmu says, the appropriate wage for the job you do), it can't contract you to work more than a full working week or less than the minimum number of part time hours, etc. If the company registers you with URSSAF as an employee then for as long as you remain on the payroll it has to generate a payslip every month showing hours worked, earnings and deductions, time taken as holiday, etc, and URSSAF need a copy, and it has to be accurate; how on earth did your company slip nil payslips past URSSAF month after month, how did social cover work if you weren't paying cotisations, how was holiday entitlement calculated? it sounds all wrong. If a company can't afford to pay its salariés then it is in difficulties.
Of course a company owner/director doesn't have to be a salarié and that to me seems a very strong argument in favour of setting up so that you are non-salarié, there is no employment contract and no obligations and you 'earn' what the company can afford to pay you, unless you're very sure the company is always going to have plenty of cash in the bank.
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Old Dec 21st 2015, 8:33 pm
  #29  
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Default re: Starting a business in France

Originally Posted by InVinoVeritas
I too was advised by an expert-comptable. As a gerant you have an obligation that the company trades within its means and does not incur unnecessary debts - paying yourself more than the company can afford seems just plain wrong to me. I only ever paid tax on what I actually received.
There's a misunderstanding here. I agree that a Gérant shouldn't be paid more than what the company can afford. I meant that neither a Gérant nor a Cadre can be given a low wage (in order to pay fewer côtisations) in view of his/her "high standing". During my "lean" months when the côtisations added up to more than what I billed, I received no salary, but still paid Income Tax on the theoretical annual salary.
All this to discourage any one from setting up an Sàrl!!
P.S. This concerns an Sàrl with only one employee (= employer and employee)
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Old Dec 21st 2015, 8:54 pm
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This might be a useful link, it explains the differences and relative advantages and disadvantages of being salarié versus non-salarié. It is a choice to be made - it would be nice if you could have all the advantages of both statuts and none of the disadvantages, which is what IVV seems to have contrived, but normally one can't.

Statut tns ou salarié pour le chef d'entreprise ? | Le coin des entrepreneurs
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