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Residency & Transition period

Residency & Transition period

Old Sep 21st 2020, 5:42 pm
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Default Residency & Transition period

Hi Everyone,

My wife and I have a bit of a complicated situation with regards to moving to France and are trying to make sense of our options.

Firstly - we were under the impression that we had to have been in France for 3 months before the end of the withdrawal agreement in order to be able to stay for more than 90 in every 180 days post-brexit. But the UK gov site just says "If you are resident in France before the transition period ends on 31 December 2020, you will be able to stay."

So, first question - what exactly is the definition of "resident" in this context?

To make things more complicated, my wife will be on maternity leave from the end of October for the next 12 months, and so is receiving maternity pay. So I guess that effectively means, as far as French authorities (banks, rental agents etc) are concerned, she's employed in the UK. Her payslips are therefore going to be a little bit all over the place if they're needed for a long term property rental. We'll be able to show she normally earns more than 3-4x rental cost (which I've read is required), but is that going to be deemed irrelevant because she's on maternity pay, and obviously not actually "working"?


I've also heard and read quite a few conflicting things about what's actually required in order to rent a property. I personally know, and have read more examples of people that have been able to get a 12 month let with a P60, 3 months of payslips, and an employment contract. But I've also read that some people need A LOT more than that. Is it simply down to the area & letting agent?

And finally - if we are able to sort a long term let, is it a case of setting up utilities in our name for the property to be able to open a bank account? If we ended up in an airbnb for example, is there any way we would be able to set a bank account up?

Thanks!
Andy
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Old Sep 21st 2020, 5:47 pm
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Default Re: Residency & Transition period

Re being resident before the end of transition. Of course it depends on your situation. If you've started a long term employment contract it's pretty clear you have taken up residencey. If you're inactif it's less obvious - but remember, you don't need to apply for your CdS until next June. If by that time you can show an unbroken period of residence that started prior to 31 Dec, I would have thought that should do.
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Old Sep 21st 2020, 7:40 pm
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Default Re: Residency & Transition period

Originally Posted by EuroTrash View Post
Re being resident before the end of transition. Of course it depends on your situation. If you've started a long term employment contract it's pretty clear you have taken up residencey. If you're inactif it's less obvious - but remember, you don't need to apply for your CdS until next June. If by that time you can show an unbroken period of residence that started prior to 31 Dec, I would have thought that should do.
Neither of us will have French employment contracts - not until after maternity leave finishes at least. Re the CdS - even if we waited close to the deadline, we'd still only be able to spend max 90 days in France in the meantime wouldn't we? (because we wouldn't be resident at that point)
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Old Sep 21st 2020, 8:16 pm
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Default Re: Residency & Transition period

Coming back on this - I would open a French bank account as soon as possible. Unfortunately you risk getting into a chicken and egg situation - you need a bank account to get a tenancy agreement, and you need a tenancy agreement to get a bank account - but if you can for instance open an account with Britline ahead of making the move, that might help.

As regards getting a tenancy agreement, it can be a bit of a poser or you may be lucky. It's a case of seeing what they ask for and trying to provide it. If you search the forum you should find threads about this. For instance there are companies such as https://garantme.fr/en who may be able to help if you find yourself being asked for a guarantor.

If you haven't already, I would get advice on the legalities of your wife moving to France if she is technically still on a UK payroll. This risks being a can of worms. Hopefully there are special arrangements for people in that position. But normally, living in France and remaining on a UK payroll is only possible in very specific situations (cross border worker, posted worker) and if those situations don't apply, then it's a big no-no. I think you need to get this sorted because it's going to complicate your healthcare arrangements - if your wife is employed on a UK contract, the UK is responsible for her healthcare, not France, so CPAM will require an S1 document from HMRC/DWP to confirm that the UK agrees to fund her healthcare in France. France isn't going to fund her healthcare if in fact it's the UK's responsiblity. Also it's probable that as part of your CdS application you will be asked to give details of your household income and its sources, so you don't want them finding any irregularities. If you've looked into this already and found your solutions, just ignore this paragraph.

Originally Posted by andyheaps View Post
Neither of us will have French employment contracts - not until after maternity leave finishes at least. Re the CdS - even if we waited close to the deadline, we'd still only be able to spend max 90 days in France in the meantime wouldn't we? (because we wouldn't be resident at that point)
Now you're confusing me. I thought the whole point was to start your period of residence before 31 December. So you will be resident, won't you.
It's not obtaining a CdS that makes you resident. What an Article 50 CdS does, is confirm that you have already established legal residence under Freedom of Movement. If you arrive with the intention of making your home in France, you can claim to be resident from the day you arrived. It's not quite as clear cut as that because obviously if you change your mind and leave again after a couple of months, you will not be classed as having been resident for a few months; so in effect you can only claim it retrospectively, when you can prove the facts. It's like tax years in the UK - where you were resident for the tax year can't be established until the end of the year, at which point you look back at the facts of where you spent your time, and your residence for the year ended is decided retrospectively. Under the WA, residents are not required to apply for a CdS until next June. So if you arrive in December with the intention of staying, then you will be classed as resident unless you change your minds and leave again. In practice, taking a short trip to the UK after April if you don't have a CdS might be interesting but I guess France will have thought of that and will something in place.

Final comment, I would try and avoid airbnb or gites or any other kind of tourist accommodation. By definition, tourist accommodation is for visitors, not residents. A residential address would better for supporting a claim to be resident.

Hope some of this helps.

Last edited by EuroTrash; Sep 21st 2020 at 8:37 pm.
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Old Sep 21st 2020, 10:46 pm
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Default Re: Residency & Transition period

Originally Posted by EuroTrash View Post

If you haven't already, I would get advice on the legalities of your wife moving to France if she is technically still on a UK payroll. This risks being a can of worms. Hopefully there are special arrangements for people in that position. But normally, living in France and remaining on a UK payroll is only possible in very specific situations (cross border worker, posted worker) and if those situations don't apply, then it's a big no-no.
Yeah, and I don't know if being on maternity pay instead of "regular" pay complicates things further! Where / who would be the go-tos to get proper advice on this?

Originally Posted by EuroTrash View Post

Now you're confusing me. I thought the whole point was to start your period of residence before 31 December. So you will be resident, won't you.
It's not obtaining a CdS that makes you resident. What an Article 50 CdS does, is confirm that you have already established legal residence under Freedom of Movement. If you arrive with the intention of making your home in France, you can claim to be resident from the day you arrived. It's not quite as clear cut as that because obviously if you change your mind and leave again after a couple of months, you will not be classed as having been resident for a few months; so in effect you can only claim it retrospectively, when you can prove the facts. It's like tax years in the UK - where you were resident for the tax year can't be established until the end of the year, at which point you look back at the facts of where you spent your time, and your residence for the year ended is decided retrospectively. Under the WA, residents are not required to apply for a CdS until next June. So if you arrive in December with the intention of staying, then you will be classed as resident unless you change your minds and leave again. In practice, taking a short trip to the UK after April if you don't have a CdS might be interesting but I guess France will have thought of that and will something in place.
Sorry, what I means was if we ended up in France as "tourists" after the transition period we can only spend 90 of 180 days there. So we couldn't for example go in December and stay until June, when the deadline for the CdS application is.

Thanks for your help - what a minefield!!
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Old Sep 22nd 2020, 7:56 am
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Default Re: Residency & Transition period

Originally Posted by andyheaps View Post
Hi Everyone,

My wife and I have a bit of a complicated situation with regards to moving to France and are trying to make sense of our options.

Firstly - we were under the impression that we had to have been in France for 3 months before the end of the withdrawal agreement in order to be able to stay for more than 90 in every 180 days post-brexit. But the UK gov site just says "If you are resident in France before the transition period ends on 31 December 2020, you will be able to stay."

So, first question - what exactly is the definition of "resident" in this context?

To make things more complicated,
my wife will be on maternity leave from the end of October for the next 12 months, and so is receiving maternity pay. So I guess that effectively means, as far as French authorities (banks, rental agents etc) are concerned, she's employed in the UK. Her payslips are therefore going to be a little bit all over the place if they're needed for a long term property rental. We'll be able to show she normally earns more than 3-4x rental cost (which I've read is required), but is that going to be deemed irrelevant because she's on maternity pay, and obviously not actually "working"?

I've also heard and read quite a few conflicting things about what's actually required in order to rent a property. I personally know, and have read more examples of people that have been able to get a 12 month let with a P60, 3 months of payslips, and an employment contract. But I've also read that some people need A LOT more than that. Is it simply down to the area & letting agent?

And finally - if we are able to sort a long term let, is it a case of setting up utilities in our name for the property to be able to open a bank account? If we ended up in an airbnb for example, is there any way we would be able to set a bank account up?

Thanks!
Andy
Hi, you don't say whether the baby will be born before you arrive here. Apart from all the Administrative factors, is your wife happy with the idea of having her baby in France and/or coping with the follow-up à la française? There are rules to follow....
How is your respective French? You both need to be able to communicate with all the nursing/medical staff during the compulsory pre/post-natal exams and to understand what's happening during the birth. It's unlikely that some one in the delivery room will interpret what your wife is being told to do.... Not to mention the compulsory consultations with a paediatrician and gynaecologist. Even if Doctors speak English, they prefer not to, to avoid misunderstandings.... In your situation, coming over to France without speaking the language would be daunting...
With this in mind, sort out her employment status before you take the plunge.
As said, a gîte or AirBnB wouldn't be valid as an address justifying Residence. You could look for short-term (12 month) furnished accommodation where the financial requirements are less strict.
Whereabouts are you thinking of settling? I would avoid rural areas where maternity clinics/specialists are few and far between. For example the nearest maternity clinic to me is over 30 km away, but luckily I already had my two in the Paris suburbs before we moved down south.
If you won't be working for 12 months, would her salary be your only income? If so, some one more in the know will advise on your own "inactif" status, unless you'd be covered by your wife's UK healthcare coverage?
You've got a lot of research to do, and not much time to do it before the Brexit deadline, especially with a pregnancy in the equation!
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Old Sep 22nd 2020, 9:52 am
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Default Re: Residency & Transition period

Originally Posted by andyheaps View Post
Sorry, what I means was if we ended up in France as "tourists" after the transition period we can only spend 90 of 180 days there. So we couldn't for example go in December and stay until June, when the deadline for the CdS application is.
I'm still not seeing the complication.
There are different rules according to whether you're a visitor or a resident in France. You have to be clear on what your status is, I'm not sure what you mean by "'If we ended up in France as "tourists"'. Either you're a visitor, ie you remain UK resident, you have a home in the UK waiting for you to go back to it and pick up your life there, and you don't apply for a CdS in France because it's not where you live; or you've moved to France ie you no longer live in the UK, you've started a new life in France - you'll declare your income in France from the date you arrived, you've left the NHS and joined or will join PUMA, you've got your car on French plates and insured it in France, etc, and you do apply for a CdS. If you've moved to France and become resident, nobody expects you to leave your home and your new life after 90 days and go to another country where you no longer have a home.

If what you're saying is you don't want to move to France but you want to stay there as UK residents on an extended visit, I guess you will eventually be able to apply for a long stay visitor visa but AFAIK they haven't even started setting up a system between the UK and France yet. Plus, I believe France has put visa applications on hold for the time being due to COVID-19. So I think you would have to wait and see on that.

Last edited by EuroTrash; Sep 22nd 2020 at 10:23 am.
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Old Sep 22nd 2020, 10:28 am
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Default Re: Residency & Transition period

Originally Posted by dmu View Post
Hi, you don't say whether the baby will be born before you arrive here. Apart from all the Administrative factors, is your wife happy with the idea of having her baby in France and/or coping with the follow-up à la française?
No, we'd be heading out as soon as possible afterwards (after vaccinations, initial checks etc). There will likely be some follow up to be done in France but my wife's French is good - she's a doctor too, with specific medical french language knowledge.

Originally Posted by dmu View Post
Whereabouts are you thinking of settling?
We're hoping somewhere in Savoie - around Annecy, Albertville etc

Originally Posted by dmu View Post
If you won't be working for 12 months, would her salary be your only income? If so, some one more in the know will advise on your own "inactif" status, unless you'd be covered by your wife's UK healthcare coverage?
I'm a co-director of a small UK company so I'll be working, but it'll be a UK income.
Originally Posted by dmu View Post
You've got a lot of research to do, and not much time to do it before the Brexit deadline, especially with a pregnancy in the equation!
Tell me about it! We were resigned to the fact that we'd only be able to go as tourists after teh Brexit deadline and spend 90 days at a time there. But then friends of friends are moving out in December, having been able to arrange it with their UK employers to work from France, and so have been able to get a 12 month let. So all of a sudden it seems like it might actually be possible for us too, albeit our situation is a bit more complicated!
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Old Sep 22nd 2020, 10:37 am
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Default Re: Residency & Transition period

Originally Posted by andyheaps View Post
And finally - if we are able to sort a long term let, is it a case of setting up utilities in our name for the property to be able to open a bank account? If we ended up in an airbnb for example, is there any way we would be able to set a bank account up?
This may be the least of your problems judging by all the other comments, but in my case I found Britline the easiest French bank account to get. You can do it from UK before you come to France using a UK address and everyone on the phone speaks English if your French isn't yet up to it. From what I have seen their fees are very similar to all the other banks and I have found them extremely helpful to the point of getting my car and mutuelle insurances through them. There are no branches, but I have never had a problem that wasn't solved immediately on the phone.
Good luck with it all.
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Old Sep 22nd 2020, 10:55 am
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Default Re: Residency & Transition period

Originally Posted by andyheaps View Post
I'm a co-director of a small UK company so I'll be working, but it'll be a UK income.
Well this is where your research should start.
You CANNOT work in France unless you're properly registered, paying social security and taxes in France. This remains the case even if your employer is based in the UK or another country, you don't have clients in France, whatever. It's the rule of bum; if your bum is in France when you do the work, you are governed by French social, fiscal and employment law, with the exception of a few very specific situations defined by EU regulations - posted worker etc.
If you're an employee of the company, in the absence of any other specific EU rules applying, the company is obliged to register you with URSSAF as an employee. I suggest you read this carefully
https://www.urssaf.fr/portail/files/...FE-UK-2017.pdf

I also suggest you read the France - UK tax treaty and figure out how it applies to your situation. Depending on how the company is set up, the business model and what operations you will be performing in France, it may be necessary to set up some kind of French subsidiary or sister company. If other directors are resident in the UK, all management meetings take place in the UK and all policymaking is done in the UK, all or nearly all of the company's assets and stock are kept in the UK and you simply carry out some kind of functional role from France, you should be OK, but you need to make sure your back is covered because France is quite keen to the point of being overkeen on taking action against companies that it thinks should be registered in France but aren't. Ask me how I know.

Please don't think that moving to France is like moving to another part of the UK as far as employment is concerned, and you can stay on the UK payroll and work remotely and it doesn't change anything. It changes everything because if you work in France you're normally subject to French employment and social security law not UK employment and social security law. There's a whole department of DIRECCTE that spends its time investigating foreign workers and foreign companies that operate in France, looking for infringments of French law. Again, ask me how I know. Hopefully your friends that you mention, and their UK employers, are up to speed with the requirements. If you're living in France and receiving a salary, France will soon know about it because details of your worldwide income and its sources have to be disclosed to various authorities - CPAM for healthcare, the Prefecture for residence rights, the tax office for income tax purposes. You need to find out the rules and comply with them, because if you're not following the rules you'll find yourself excluded from the system all the way along - you won't be accepted for healthcare, you won't have an acceptable status for residence purposes or to satisfy potential landlords, banks etc. And as dmu says time is getting short. The process described in the URSSAF guide (link above) can't be done in a few days, you need to go through it one step at a time - your company needs to register itself as a foreign employer, make a pre-employment declaration for you, arrange your medical, arrange healthcare insurance for you, sort out how it's going to produce your paysllps and what contributions it has to pay, etc etc etc. Employers have far more obligations in France than they do in the UK, and these obligations are enforced. I think you have a small mountain to climb in a short space of time so good luck with it.

EDIT - if you can get it done in time, it's well worth doing because you would then have a permanent French employment contract which is the gold standard for just about everything - residence rights, property rental, bank loans etc.

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Old Sep 22nd 2020, 12:57 pm
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Default Re: Residency & Transition period

Originally Posted by andyheaps View Post
No, we'd be heading out as soon as possible afterwards (after vaccinations, initial checks etc). There will likely be some follow up to be done in France but my wife's French is good - she's a doctor too, with specific medical french language knowledge.


We're hoping somewhere in Savoie - around Annecy, Albertville etc


I'm a co-director of a small UK company so I'll be working, but it'll be a UK income.

Tell me about it! We were resigned to the fact that we'd only be able to go as tourists after teh Brexit deadline and spend 90 days at a time there. But then friends of friends are moving out in December, having been able to arrange it with their UK employers to work from France, and so have been able to get a 12 month let. So all of a sudden it seems like it might actually be possible for us too, albeit our situation is a bit more complicated!
- fair enough, that reduces a lot of stress, but it's not LIKELY. There will be, until the child reaches its majority...
BUT
- if you're HOPING somewhere in the Savoie, this means that you've got to get your skates on to find somewhere suitable before 31st December. Not forgetting the Covid situation, it wouldn't be reasonable for you all to come over house-hunting...
- ET has given you ESSENTIAL info on that subject, including the Law of Bum and your social security contributions. And next year you will have to declare your worldwide income in your French Tax Déclaration
- be wary of what "friends of friends" have been able to arrange with their UK employers, no one is ever in the same situation as oneself.... You and your co-director would have to decide yourselves whether your company wants all the financial hassle.
I for one am playing the Devil's Advocate here, as you must be made aware of all thevarious pitfalls that you're likely to encounter and, with a new baby in tow, you must be sure of everything. As I'm wont to say, fore-warned is fore-armed.
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Old Sep 22nd 2020, 3:34 pm
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Default Re: Residency & Transition period

Originally Posted by dmu View Post
- be wary of what "friends of friends" have been able to arrange with their UK employers, no one is ever in the same situation as oneself.
This ^^^^
In the past many Brits have taken their chances with working in France for themselves or for UK employers, unregistered and not paying cotisations and staying below the radar. Some have come unstuck after investigations and some have unstuck when they needed healthcare in France and discovered that because they'd evaded the system and not followed the rules, neither France nor the UK was obliged to take responsiblity for their healthcare in France, and they were on their own facing very high bills. With a new baby you can't risk this unless you have very deep pockets.
I'm not saying your friends of friends aren't doing everything correctly - but as dmu says, what's correct in their specific circumstances may not be correct in your specific circumstances. You mentioned that you are a director of a UK company, you don't mention if your friend of a friend is also a director of a UK company and if so if that company is set up in exactly the same way and operates in exactly the same way.

The difference between living here legally and living here irregularly hasn't been much of an issue for Brits up to now because it's not France's policy to check whether every EU citizen is exercising their freedom of movement correctly or not. It's assumed they are, and if they're not then it's up to them to face the consequences and no skin off France's nose. France is very much constructed around rights and obligations. If you meet your obligations you have certain rights, in other words the state has obligations towards you in return. If you choose not to meet your obligations you have no rights and the state has no responsibilities towards you. When Brits lose their FoM and become third country nationals, France will no longer turn a blind eye because immigration becomes involved. To get a CdS under the WA you need to show you were correctly exercising your freedom of movement prior to the end of transition. If you can't do that and you remain in France as a third country national with no CdS, that's an immigration offence and countries don't turn a blind eye to that.

Last edited by EuroTrash; Sep 22nd 2020 at 4:07 pm.
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