bazzer70

Hi all - I saw a brief snippet on UK tv the other day that indicated that many UK expats living in France were panicking about their continued presence in France after Brexit and therefore there was a huge surge of applications from UK expats to register for residency....
Surely most of those people should have registered anyway if most of their time is spent living in France?
I submitted a post in the Portugal pages re residency in 2 countries and from reading between the lines I gather very many people haven't actually followed the rules...
I have a friend (acquaintance rather) who lives in France for most of the year and he says he lives "under the radar" but he was reticent to give me too many details. He owns a house there has a bank account (he does say he pays private for any medical), drives his French registered car (not sure if he still uses his UK driving license but surely after a certain period this would be illegal?).
We initially thought we'd like to move totally to a European country (Portugal, France or Italy) but the hoops seem such a deterrence for people like us who luckily could afford to keep our UK home. We are therefore investigating spending most of the year in our chosen country but to return to UK probably once a year for maybe a month or 2. I wonder if there are (I am sure there must be) any of you in France who do similar and have any advice for us regarding the need to officially register etc.
Thanks in Advance!

EuroTrash

No there is currently no requirement to register in France. It is presumed that people will exercise their rights to FoM correctly but if they're abusing the right and as you say living below the radar, France doesn't tend to proactively do anything about it. However, obviously if they're not meeting their obligations then France has no obligations towards them, and they have no entitlement to any state support such as healthcare, social security or whatever. I suppose technically they would be regarded as visitors from another EU state who have outstayed the 3 months allowed to visitors, but as EU citizens it's no big deal because in effect they can come and go unchecked. After Brexit, as citizens of a third country, they risk finding themselves in the same situation as eg. a citizen of the US, Australia, China, India or wherever who had come to live in France without a visa, ie illegal immigrants.

Personally I'm a law abiding person by nature and don't think that abusing your rights as an EU citizen is to be recommended, and I think potentially becoming an illegal immigrant is even less to be recommended, but there always have been and always will be people who think it's clever to try and cheat the system.

I just wonder what your friend would do if he was unfortunate enough to develop a medical condition that he couldn't afford the treatment for?

cyrian

Hi
In France, you don't register for (tax) residency - you cannot choose to be tax resident or not.
It is a matter of national rules and international treaty.
Currently, UK nationals are EU citizens and therefore (assuming that they can support themselves financially) have a right to live in France.
After Brexit, they will perhaps have no such right and UK expats are applying for a Carte de Sejour which is required by non-EU residents.
It is a legal requirement in France that each household should submit a tax return which would be for the first return from the first day of their residence in France.
Your acquaintance may not be living "under the radar" as he assumes, depending on whether he is working or not.
Under the France - UK Double Taxation Treaty, if he is not working, and he maintains a home in both countries then he would be considered to be tax resident in the country of his nationality.
That does not mean that France would be happy about this because it doesn't agree with their tax rules but eventually the Treaty is the deciding factor.
You can Google the Treaty and read the rules for yourself.
Post Brexit, I suspect that someone who is not tax resident in France would be able to get a Carte de Sejour.
In addition, if you are no longer resident in The UK then you are no longer entitled to NHS services.
HTH

Just saw ET's post.
The Double Taxation Treaty does not depend on the EU.
It is a Treaty between the UK and France and will not be affected by Brexit.

EuroTrash

Yes, that's the "tie-break" if his country of residence is still in doubt after applying the residence rules of both countries.
For instance, under France's residence rules you can be considered resident if you spend most of your time here. Under the UK's residence rules which are a lot more complicated, if you have few ties to the UK and spend less that a certain number of days in the UK then you're not considered resident. So a non working person who spends 365 days of the year in France would be considered resident in France, the tie break would not come into it.
So to be sure of staying UK resident, you would need to go through the statutory residence test and work out how many days you need to spend in the UK each year, and then make sure you do.

EuroTrash

No I know... but I never mentioned the DTA?
What will be affected by Brexit, is the need to comply with immigration procedures in order to live legally in France, which at present Brits don't have to do but probably after Brexit they will.

EuroTrash

???
Might you be on the wrong thread, perchance?

Magukat

Yes, thank you! I've reposted to the relevant

cyrian

I wasn't correcting anything you said but after reading your post I realised that I needed to clarify my own response viz-a-viz Brexit.
I agree that someone who spends 365 days a year in a country would be tax resident there but that is not what the OP is proposing.
They are proposing returning to the UK for one or two months. If they have maintained a residence in the UK then the French residency rules and the UK residency rules do not apply - the Tax Treaty rules the roost.
The part of the Treaty that I am referring to is for non-employed people who live between the 2 countries.
The agreement on how the Treaty is applied is down to negotiation between the UK and French tax authorities.
Hope that clarifies it.

EuroTrash

UK residency rules summed up here, they apply to non-employed people as well as employed people. Depending on how many "ties" the person has, the threshold for residency can be anywhere between 16 and 183 days. For 2 ties he would need 91 days in the UK for the UK to class him as resident.
http://www.blplaw.com/media/how-can-...0flowchart.PDF

bazzer70

Thanks everyone for input
I have to admit to getting a bit confused by flowcharts but I think I have worked it out...
so
if we buy a home in France and keep our UK home, and, since we have lived in UK for >91 days in one of the previous 2 tax years then in our first 2 years of spending the majority of time in France we need to (have to) spend 46 to 91 days at least in UK (we have 2 other ties - family in UK and accessible accommodation for > 1 night - ie our UK house) to remain as a UK resident.
After the first 2 years one of our "ties" vanishes (because we probably won't have spent 91 days in either of previous 2 tax years in UK) so we from then HAVE to spend >91 days in UK to continue being considered UK resident.
France is close enough should we need to return at short notice for anything medical plus we really do not want to have the hassle of getting to grips with inheritance tax issues and other tax implications involved in being considered resident elsewhere.
If we are being naive I won't be offended if somebody points this out!
Thanks so much once again

EuroTrash

Yes I think you've understood correctly. Well done, it"s always seemed to me that HMRC has made this unnecessarily complicated.

But, since you're not mentioning Brexit, can we assume that you have another EU nationality so that you will still have freedom of movement? Nobody knows exactly how France will treat Brits post brexit, but I think it would be a tad dangerous to buy a home on the assumption that Brits will still be able to come and go as they please and spend as long as they like in France. France doesn't have a policy of uncontrolled immigration any more than the UK does. Since residents of all other third countries have to get visas to enter France, presumbably Brits will have to do the same, unless a special arrangement is made - which is looking unlikely because the UK seems to intend being hardline on not letting in EU citizens into the UK after Brexit, and such arrangements are usually reciprocal. So you could end up playing the visa game, which would involve making applications each time you want to visit, proving that you have sufficient medical insurance to cover your trip and paying the visa fee each time, and then making sure you don't overstay your visa otherwise OFII will be on your case when you get to the border, etc. It's doable but it's restricting.

bazzer70

Yes - I am Irish (lived and paid taxes pretty much all my life in UK) - however partner is British so could be more complicated but not insurmountable if things go pear-shaped re Brexit - we, for personal and not particularly interesting reasons prefer not to make our relationship "official" but seeing how the Brexit is panning out...I am sure all will be fine!
Again - thank you

cyrian

Sorry ET I do not understand why this is applicable.
This gives the UK rules for residency. France also has its rules for residency.
Where the situation is not clear then it is the Dual Taxation Treaty that the two tax authorities use.
Extract of Treaty
RESIDENCE
1. For the purposes of this Convention, the term “resident of a Contracting State” means any person who, under the laws of that State, is liable to tax therein by reason of his domicile, residence, place of management, place of incorporation or any other criterion of a similar nature, and also includes that State and any political subdivision or local authority thereof, and any statutory body of that State, subdivision or authority. This term does not include any person who is liable to tax in that State in respect only of income or capital gains from sources in that State.
2. Where by reason of the provisions of paragraph 1 an individual is a resident of both Contracting States, then his status shall be determined in accordance with the following rules:
(a) he shall be deemed to be a resident only of the Contracting State in which he has a permanent home available to him; if he has a permanent home available to him in both States, he shall be deemed to be a resident only of the State with which his personal and economic relations are closer (centre of vital interests);
(b) if the Contracting State in which he has his centre of vital interests cannot be determined, or if he does not have a permanent home available to him in either State, he shall be deemed to be a resident only of the State in which he has an habitual abode;
(c) if he has an habitual abode in both Contracting States or in neither of them, he shall be deemed to be a resident only of the State of which he is a national;
(d) if he is a national of both Contracting States or of neither of them, the competent authorities of the States shall settle the question by mutual agreement.
3. Where by reason of the provisions of paragraph 1 a person other than an individual is a resident of both Contracting States, then it shall be deemed to be a resident only of the State in which its place of effective management

HTH

EuroTrash

It seemed applicable because as you say

If the OP got into a situation where he met the French rules for residency (ie length of time in France) and he didn't meet the UK rules for residency (ie didn't spend long enough in the UK for the UK to class him as resident) then the situation would be perfectly clear. He would be classed as resident by France and he would be classed as non resident by the UK so why would the DTA come into it. Therefore it seemed to me that if he wants to stay UK resident he needs to know how long he has to spend the UK to make sure of this.
Seems logical to me but clearly you see it differently, anyway I think the OP has all the info now so it's up to him how he uses it.

bazzer70

Aha - so my situation could complicate it more then cyrian as I will have a habitual abode in both countries, however I am not a national of the country where my personal and economic relations are closer (my pensions, private and State, investments, first home) ie the UK - where I have lived (resided) most of my life and paid taxes, National Insurance etc. I have zero connections whatsoever (other than distant relations!) in Ireland (my Nationality) and haven't set foot there since 1982 I think!
I think that so long as I spend the required number of days in UK (initially >46 and then 91) I should be able to be a UK taxpayer exclusively - which is my aim so as to keep things simple.
Very grateful for any input if I have it wrong
thanks again