Asterex

Hi all,
A pipe broke in my property in Limoges and was left to run for a while causing condensation and the floor to rot. The insurance are paying for the pipe but not the floorboards and accusing the agents of neglect. They may have an argument here. However, before i choose who to point the finger at I need to speak to a lawyer.

Does anyone know of one in Limoges who speaks good English, maybe even an expert in the area of property.

Any help/advice/contacts will be most appreciated.

Garonne

This may not be the case, but in France if the property was vacant, ie uninhabited for any period of time in cold weather (more than 3 days I believe - rather ridiculously) water damage as the result of a burst pipe isn't covered by any house insurance as the water system has to be totally drained and the water supply turned off.

When you say 'agents' are you referring to a property management company or an estate agency who hold keys? Whichever, unless you have a French contract in place stating their obligations of frequency to visit you won't have any luck trying to sue them. Even if you do have a contract and they were supposed to visit weekly, for example, they will say the pipe burst between their visits. If it's a verbal agreement with anyone it will carry no weight in a French court. By all means seek advice from a lawyer but if you post some more info on here you'll get some sound advice with first-hand experience info to share. (Several of us are well-versed in property law!)

If none of the above are contracted to caretake your property in your absence with specific days to inspect, please let us know and we'll start again! May save you the expense of an avocat(e)!

Asterex

Hi Garonne,
Thanks for your reply, and i could do with all the help i can get. You will find it interesting, but - I warn you - a little heavy, and you'll have to take a few steps away to get you head round it.

For a start. It is one house but divided out into 4 flats - 3 were occupied, one vacant, and had been for a year. And it was the vacant one where the condensation from the broken pipe (a soil pipe) in the cellar, caused the floorboards to rot.

Secondly to your question, it is a property Management company (or supposed to be... call me biased), and they do have obligations as this is what the insurance company are blaming them for. In the: 'Conditions Generales du Mandat'

No 3 states.

3. Proceder a toutes les reparations de moindre cout; pour les operations plus onereuses: reparations, reconstructions, changements de distributions, etc…, aviser le mandant et obtenir son accord avant de passer a cet effet les devis et marches avec tous les architects, entrepreneurs et artisans, et an payer les memoires: EN CAS D’URGENCE, proceder aux operations et en aviser tout de suite le mandant.

Which google translates as:

3. Proceed to repair all of lower cost, more onerous for operations: repair, reconstruction, in exchange distributions, etc ..., notify the principal and his Obtain approval before procédure To That effect with the quotation and all marches architects, contractors and artisans, year and pay memoirs: IN CASE OF EMERGENCY, operations and proceed to IMMEDIATELY notify the principal.

But it's number 7 which the insurance company finds fault with:

7. Prendre toutes dispositions pour assurer la bonne marche et l’entretien des divers services de fonetionnement: eau, gaz electricite, chauffage, etc.

Which google translates as:

7. Take Necessary Measures to Ensure all the proper operation and maintenance of various services fonetionnement: water, gas electricity, heating, etc.

The Insurance company do not know about the emails, which i will show you in a moment. Which will further show the agent's lack of management of my property. Yet before i wade into battle guns blazing, my misgivings are, I could be shooting myself in the foot. For A) perhaps it's the insurance company I should be aiming at, and B) I may have been a little incompetent myself having not spotted the damage to the floor when i first visited it in Septmeber 2011 and seem to have (most unwittingly put up barriers to them doign the work, for this is what i fear the agents may be arguing - or is it just me fretting).

If your attention hasn't wavered, and you have a cup of tea at the ready, here's the rest of the case:

Part of the Insurance letter to my agents:

Circonstances du sinistre

Mr HALLAGAN est proprietaire non occupant d’un immeuble constitue d’appartments qu’il donne en location (5 logements). La gestion de cet immeuble est confiee a la societe GESTIMMO (selon mandat de gestion immobiliere en piece jointe) depuis Juillet 2005.
Le 1er Fevrier 2012, celui-ci constate l’affaissement du plancher (constitue d’un solivage bois et tablier en planches de bois) d’un logement situe au rez-de chaussee dudit immeuble. Il se rend dans la cave de l’immeuble, vide de tout contenu, accessible depuis les parties communes et non attribuee a l’un des logements et decouvre la rupture d’une canalisation d’evacuation des eaux vannes ainsi que de nombreux effluents sur le sol de celle-ci. Le plancher haut de la cave correspond au plancher bas de l’appartement precite. Il a alors procede a une reparation provisoire de la canalisation defectueuse.
Au cours de nos operations, nous avons constate que :
- Le sol de appartement s’affaissait sous le poids d’un homme en de nombreux points de l’appartement, notamment dans le sejour et la salle de bain.
- La cave ne comporte aucune ventilation communicante avec l’exterieur.
- Le solivage et le plancher presentent de tres nombreuses traces de pourriture et de champignons temoignant de l’anciennete de l’evenement. Ce plancher est a remplacer dans son integralite ainsi que les amenagements situes au-dessus.
- Les maconneries sont humides sur la totalite de la peripherie de la cave.
- La canalisation recueille les eaux vannes et usees de plusieurs logements (nombre non determine mais superieur a un) et que la reparation de fortune (recente) de Mr HALLAGAN est bien visible.
- Mr HALLAGAN nous a declare que precedemment, il etait venu es Septembre / Octobre dans le logement concerne par le sinistre et n’avait aucun dommage et que celui-ci était vacant depuis moins d’un an. Mr HALLAGAN etant un ressortissant britannique, il ne s’y rend que 1 ou 2 fois par an.
-
Causes du sinistre
Rupture d’une canalisation d’eaux usees et vannes situee dans la cave sous le logement rez-de-chaussee ayant tres fortement aggrave la condensation inherente a l’interieur de celle-ci.
La cave de l’immeuble n’a donc pas été visitee frequemment par le gestionnaire de l’immeuble, conformement aux engagements contractuels du contrat de gestion regularise entre Mr HALLAGAN et la societe GESTIMMO, notamment l’alinea 7 de <L’etendue des pouvoirs> de celui-ci. Ceci explique l’etat de pourrissement des lames du plancher et du solivage.
Fait et clos a LIMOGES, le 08 Aout 2012
Mr Peyret.

XX xx translated xx XX

Mr HALLAGAN owner is not Occupying a building of apartments is he lets (5 units). Management of the building is Entrusted to the company GESTIMMO (DEPENDING term property management in attachment) since July 2005.
On 1 February 2012, it finds the collapsed floor (joist is a wood deck planks) accommodation is on the ground floor of That building. He Went into the cellar of the building, empty of all content, accessible from the Common areas and not one of the Attributed to housing and discovers a broken sewage pipe evacuation of effluent as well as Many of soil thereof. The top floor of the cellar is the bottom floor of the apartment Referred to above. He then repair a defective provisional METHOD line.
In our operations, we found That:
- The floor sagged under the weight apartment of a man in Many Parts of the apartment, Especially in the living room and bathroom.
- The cellar Has No ventilation communicating with the exterior.
- The floor joists and Have very many traces of rot and fungi Testifying to the seniority of the event. This is to replace floor in Entirety icts as well as Developments located above.
- The masonry is wet on the totality of the Periphery of the cellar.
- The pipe collects sewage and wastewater from several homes (number not yet Determined upper one) and repair of fortune (recent) Mr HALLAGAN is Clearly visible.
- Mr HALLAGAN Previously we HAD STATED That he come're in September / October in the housing for the disaster and HAD no damage and That It was vacant for less than one year. Mr HALLAGAN being has British citizen, he goes there only 1 or 2 times a year.
-

Causes of the accident

Out of a sewage pipe and valves located in the basement beneath the ground floor housing with very Strongly aggravates the inherent condensation in the interior thereof.
The cellar of the building HAS beens Frequently visited not by the property manager, in Accordance with contractual management of the Contract Commitments Between Mr regularize HALLAGAN GESTIMMO and society, Including paragraph 7 of powers> <The extent thereof. This Explains the state of rotting floorboards and joists.
Is closed and HAS LIMOGES, August 8, 2012
Mr. Peyret.

X

My insurance’s Letter to myself

Monsieur,
Nous nous référons à votre sinistre survenu le 1er février 2012 et accusons réception de votre mail en date
du 14 décembre 2012.
Comme évoqué dans notre correspondance en date du 20 octobre 2012, nous avons présenté, pour votre compte

Nous venons de recevoir un courrier de son avocat contestant sa responsabilité dans la survenance du
sinistre.
N'étant pas assureur protection juridique, nous ne pouvons représenter vos intérêts.
Nous vous remettons donc copie des éléments de votre dossier pour que vous puissiez vous rapprocher de
GESTIMMO et de son conseil.
Nous vous prions d'agréer, Monsieur, l'expression de nos sentiments les meilleurs.

Pièces jointes : rapport d'expertise
procès verbal d'expertise

xx xx translated xx xx

sir,
We refer to your disaster occurred on February 1, 2012 and acknowledge receipt of your mail dated
December 14, 2012.
As mentioned in our correspondence dated 20 October 2012, we submitted to your account a claim to your agents.
We have just received a letter from his lawyer contesting its liability to the occurrence of
disaster.
Not being legal expenses insurer, we cannot represent your interests.
So we will give you a copy of the information in your file that you can bring to
their council.
Please accept, Excellency, the assurances of our best wishes.

X

Letter from my agent's Lawyer
Madame, Monsieur
Mon client, Monsieur NEBOUT, representant de l’agence immobiliere m’a remis la copie du courrier que vous lui avez adresse le 2 novembre 2012.
Aux termes du process-verbal de constatation des causes et circonstances et evaluation des dommages que vous avez vous-meme dresse, vous precisez que votre assure, Monsieur HALLAGAN, serait venu dans le courant du mois de septembre et octobre 2011 sur LIMOGES et qu’il n’avait constate alors aucun dommage.
Il me semble donc difficile de venir reprocher quoi ce soit a l’agencie qui avait le bien en gestion puisque les dommages n’etaient pas visible.
Votre conclusion qui consisterait a dire que la responsabilite de serait l'agencie engage au regard des articles 1992 et suivants du Code Civil est parfaitement erronee.
Vous pouvez me communiqué les coordonees de votre Avocat dans l’hypothese ou vous auriez des observations a faire valoir afin de me permettre d’entrer directement en contact avec lui.
Dans l’attente,
Je vous prie d’agreer, Madame, Monsieur, l’expression de mes salutations distinguees.
Signed,

Xx xx Translated xx xx

Dear
My client, Mr. NEBOUT, representative of the estate agency gave me a copy of email address that you have 2 November 2012.
Under the process-verbal recognition of the causes and circumstances and damage assessment that you prepare yourself, you ensure that your precisez Mr. HALLAGAN, would come in the month of September and October 2011 LIMOGES and that he had then found no damage.
It seems difficult to come reproach which it has agencie had good management because damages were not visible.
Your conclusion would be to say that the responsibility of the agency be committed under Articles 1992 and following of the Civil Code is completely erroneous.
You can release me the coordinates of your lawyer or the hypothesis you have any observations to argue for allowing me to come into direct contact with him.
In the meantime,
I beg you to accept, Madam, Sir, the assurances of my highest consideration.

Signed,

xx

And this is how things transpired in the run up to discovering the damage, and how my agents and I dealt with it, with posting of our e-mails.

The Case

INTRO
The summation is who is to blame. The insurance company, the agents or me.
According to the Agents e-mail on the 20th September, the damage was already done, but I had failed to notice it. In which case whether I noticed it or not, the damage had been done which makes the agents complacent (remember the state of the place, the broken lock).
However, I, in not noticing it (just believing it to be a single weak floorboard) could be classed as complacent for not seeing it, and failing to take action - But don’t I contract the agent’s for managing the property for me which they clearly are not doing.
Or, is it the fault of my insurance – for are they not contracted to me for accidental cover.
X

THE STORY

At the beginning of September 2011,
after returning from New Zealand, I decided to visit Limoges to check on my property on account of the Lower flat having not been rented out for somewhere near a year and overall the returns I was getting that year were well below par of the previous 6 years.
On receiving the keys, I arrived at the property to find the door open to the lower studio and the lock broken. Entering, I found it in a terrible state of repairs. Of which I still have documentary evidence (photos) taken at the time.
To give you an idea - the floor was dirty, the extractor covered in black dust, the fridge door seal was embedded with mould, cobwebs and their makers everywhere. My agent appeared to not take their job seriously.
Annoyed, a little angry, perplexed even (why would they leave it like this as it’s against their own interests). I returned to my agent handed in the keys in and showed them some of the photo’s. They seemed a little shocked but no apology was given. Leaving them with an itinery of what needed to be done, including: a quote for a carpet cleaner, cleaning, painting and a new lock. I then decided to have a scout round the city for others agents but found none in such a good position as they were in the centre and proudly displayed. Instead, I went back to the airport and forwarded them the photo’s later when I was about to leave the country.


20th September,
after returning to the UK, having had no reply for a couple of weeks I decided to email asking what progress had been done.


22nd September,
I received an e-mail, saying they were waiting for a quote from a locksmith and they had since been to the property with a painter. However, when their they found something, I quote:
We realized that the floor under the linoleum seems to be in a bad state, we fell that it's not resistant anymore in several sides when we walk on it.’
Did you feel it too when you were in ?

I underline these section and the ones that follow for they are particularly important, and all words in italics is as they are in the e-mails.


27th September,
I replied to her. I quote:
The floor did feel a little weak in just one place. If you feel it necessary to repair, how? I would suggest the floor needs to be rolled back, examined and then replace the wooden plank that's weak. they just have to be careful not to rip the lino because there is nothing wrong with it.
Get back to me if you questioning what i'm suggersting.
Hope its sunny over there


13th October ,
(over 2 weeks later),
having received no reply, I emailed her again, asking what progress is being made, I quote:
The other issue of course is the lower studio that has not been kept up to standard and has been vacant for a full year! To repeat what i sent in my last e-mail. Have you a quote for the replacement lock - how much and when can we get it done?

As to the floor have you had a flooring/carpenter expert look at it. To repeat, I don't want the flooring damaged but to remain intact and just the floorboard to be replaced.

And have we a quote for the painting - only the lounge needs doing. The bathroom just needs a scrub.

I also e-mailed Catherine that same day, knowing Amandine, was never the best for getting back to me quickly.


13th October,
This time, after doing that, I received an e-mail the same day from Amandine. She was not so much giving me an estimate for the lock but a bill $226 euros; also telling me the carpenter they used retired and are they were trying to get someone else (remember how long it’s been, to get to this stage and it’s me doing the chasing – 3 weeks since she discovered the fault! Also in their contract it states they would get handymen and forward me the quote before any work does ahead)


24th October,
I get an e-mail telling me she’ll get me quotes both for the floor and pointing as soon as possible.


21st November,
I get an email telling me one of the tenants is leaving – nothing about the quotes for the painting or floor


21st November,
I reply to her that’s fine but what’s happening about the quotes?!!


22nd November,
she replies claiming she sent me a quote for the decorating (which I never received) and that, I QUOTE:
For the floorboard, it's more complicated, the experts sid that he couldn't use the same linoleum after repairing the floor and he can't give us an estimate because he can't see exactly what's wrong with the floor under the linoleum.


23rd November,
I reply. Telling her sorry that I never received it, send it again, and, I quote:
Okay, it appears this is getting costly. However, before i decide what's to be done, I need to know how much it's going to cost to replace the linoleum in the studio downstairs. Can you get a quote for me and I will decide what to do from there
Or,
the only other suggestion is: is it not possible to cut out a hole in the linoleum roughly where the fault in the floor exists, take it out, examine the damage underneath in the floorboards, fix the fault and put back the 'cut-out' linoleum and buy a rug and stick it over the top to hide it. Okay it sounds a little exaggerated but that may save half the financial damage.


5th December,
I chase her up again (another 2 weeks have passed)


18th December,
I chase them up again (no reply to my last e-mail I sent 2 weeks ago) so posted Catherine in on this, thinking perhaps Amandine was/is on holiday.
Hi Catherine,
I am wanting to know the cost of replacing the linoleum in the lower studio flat.
I have asked Amandine twice for a quote but she has not sent me one or even a reply to acknoweldge she is doing anything - is she ill or on holiday?
Anyway, I would appreciate it if you can get back to me asap, as i I need to know soon.


19th December,
they reply:
Amandine is not on holiday,I asked her about the linoleum, she told me that under the linoleum it's really damaged and she has not find someone at present
who can do it.


19th December
I replied the same day:
i understand its damaged, but i want to know how much it is to replace JUST the linoleum. For when the floor gets repaired im gojng to have to replace the linoleum and want to know how much.


11th January,
I chase up again what is being done.


19th January,
I chase them up again
Hello Catherine,
I wonder if you can help me. Yet again I have emailed Amandine (4 times) and not got a reply.
I am askking her to give me a quote for a new linloeum for the ground floor studio apartment. I know the floor needs to be looked into underneath. But I still need the cost of replacing the linoleum when this is done and I am tryign to get the costing into my head of how much this is all going to cost. So can you please (if not Amandine) get somebody to give me a quote for the lower studio apartment.


20th January,
They reply.

I know Amandine asked a quote to 3F PEINTURE , but they still not have answer.
This morning she will phone them and we need it quickly.

best regards


20th january,
Having difficulty understanding the email, I try to make straight again what I want


26th january
I chase them again, asking if the upper studio is in as bad a condition as the flat was below.


26th january,
They reply,
The upstairs studio is in good state except the carpet that begins to be used, but it can be presented like that.
Unfortunately, for the moment, we have no tenant for this apartment. The winter isn't a good period for the renting of the studios.

Best regards.


They say a good state. But having had no quotes for the repairs, which would have enabled any good competent carpenter to find fault with the floor and rectify it, I decided to take it into my hands and find a tradesman myself.

I e-mail them to say I’m coming over myself and decide to take my Mother for a holiday as she’s never seen France. And on arriving, I discover how bad the floor is now and immediately venture downstairs into the cellar to discover a mist, a small runnel and a broken pipe (see photos in attachments). Furthermore, the upper studio which they say is in a good state is not - it's as shoddy as the lower flat only with a solid floor. Unfortunately however, overun with the despair of the floor below i never took photos.


THE SUMMATION (A COPY OF THE INTRO)
Who is to blame - The insurance company, the agents or me.
According to the Agents e-mail on the 20th September, the damage was already done, but I had failed to notice it. In which case (whether I noticed it or not) the damage was already done which makes the agents complacent (remember the state of the place, the broken lock).

However, I, in not noticing the floor (just believing it to be a single weak floorboard) could be classed as complacent for not seeing it and failing to take action - But don’t I contract the agent’s for managing the property for me which they clearly are not doing.

Or, is it the fault of my insurance – for are they not contracted to me for accidental cover.
Some of the finer details are: my insurers argue that there was no damage when I arrived in September and therefore Gestimmo’s lack of supervision caused this.
Yet Gestimmo have proof that there was damage for Amandine ‘realized that the floor under the linoleum seems to be in a bad state, we fell that it's not resistant anymore in several sides when we walk on it.’
Did you feel it too when you were in?

I replied to her on the 27th that The floor did feel a little weak in just one place. If you feel it nessacery to repair, how? I would suggest the floor needs to be rolled back, examined and then replace the wooden plank that's weak. they just have to be careful not to rip the lino because there is nothing wrong with it.
Get back to me if you questioning what i'm suggersting.
So we could claim the damage was already done, but that I failed to realise the extent of the damage thinking it just a weak floorboard.

However, I did say she needs to get someone to look at it and she did eventually, but failed to take account of how damaging it was. They may argue that because I did not allow them rip the linoleum they couldn’t see what was wrong. Yet didn’t Amandine admit to how bad it was already and she could have easily accessed it by gaining access to the cellar (the door to the cellar is not even locked).And are they not the professional managers of property - I am not. Equally, if the damage was bad as she said, the dame had already been done – and they should have been looking after it.

Garonne

Wow! OK, give me some time to digest ...

Incidentally, that sewer pipe doesn't look to me as if it conforms, for rental property purposes, so that could be another problem (like you need it).

First thing is knock it on the head trying to go for your insurers. They are not liable to pay for the repairs.

I've had a look at the agency's website and they don't appear to be FNAIM registered. If they are be forewarned that FNAIM have a very hot legal team who advise members and if that's the case the avocat who's denying it's the agency's responsibility will know his stuff. Is this a lawyer from a private lawyer or did it carry the FNAIM logo?

I'll read through and do some thinking but at the end of the day if you try to take this on and don't win it will cost you thousands for your own avocat, plus the other side's, plus all the experts' reports plus costs.

Get back to you when I've done some thinking whilst preparing the Jarret du porc for dinner

Garonne

OK, I've read though everything and personally I don't think you have a leg to stand on with either your insurers or the management company (ie the immoblier who you entrusted management of your property to). It seems to me from reading through the emails that you wanted them to cut corners and only cut out the piece of lino directly above the problem area of flooring, not ask an expert to come in and define where the problem was originating from.

If you know anything about French law, I would let this go. You can't pursue your insurers and it seems that the management company notified you of a problem but you wanted them to do a 'quick fix' thing. It will cost you thousands to see this through to the courts and even then I don't think you have a chance of winning.

Sorry. Go and get legal advice if you've got a spare 10 grand or so to chuck away, but if you haven't, let it go.

Regards,

Garonne

dmu

Sorry I can't comment on the OP's problem, but I will say that Google translations are absolute rubbish!

Garonne

And frequently very misleading. Never, ever rely on them for anything legal! OK to get the gist which is what the OP wanted.

danuels

Hi folks

The mother of a Neighbour of mine in Normandy, died due to medicinal mix-up. My neighbour has no funds to pursue negligence action against doctor involved.

Does anyone know if any French law firms act on "No win, No fee basis" as happens now in UK, or is there a 'legal aid' system that might apply.

Thanks

Daniels

dmu

Hi, and welcome to the forum!
Somehow your "French Lawyers" post has got itself into the "Need a Lawyer in Limoges" thread. Maybe you should post again in a New Thread as your question is more general and might not be noticed by the knowledgeable members in this thread...
They answered the question about legal aid in a recent long thread on motoring offences.

Peabrain

Hi,
There is a body called l'ONIAM (l'Office national pour l'Indemnisation des Accidents médicaux) whose job it is to investigate accidents caused by members of the medical profession, without having to take the doctor to court. An example; my ex-wife had an operation on her thyroid gland, which cut one of the nerves to her vocal chords. Thus she lost the use of one of her two vocal chords, and lost 70% of her voice. After a lot of coaxing from me, she applied to l'ONIAM and was awarded something in the region of €30,000. It's a long process, but worth it. If your neighbour has legal assistance through her house insurance, as we did, this may help and be a starting point. The whole thing is free, as far as I can remember.