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Moving to France

Moving to France

Old Jun 20th 2017, 1:39 pm
  #1  
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Default Moving to France

Hi everybody, I wondered if anyone out there could advise us.
We have just secured, not yet ours, a farmhouse that has an old barn. The house, barn and land were all included in the price. This is what we would like to do but the estate agent seems to be making things more complicated.
Myself and husband are buying the barn, a friend is buying the house. Neither one is habitable at the moment. We want to split the land and divide it in two so it then becomes two separate homes with their own chunk of land. We understand French law is different from English but the agent seems to be making the process complicated. We can't be the first people to ever want to do this. Any suggestions?
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Old Jun 20th 2017, 2:12 pm
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Default Re: Moving to France

Originally Posted by Endonurse
Hi everybody, I wondered if anyone out there could advise us.
We have just secured, not yet ours, a farmhouse that has an old barn. The house, barn and land were all included in the price. This is what we would like to do but the estate agent seems to be making things more complicated.
Myself and husband are buying the barn, a friend is buying the house. Neither one is habitable at the moment. We want to split the land and divide it in two so it then becomes two separate homes with their own chunk of land. We understand French law is different from English but the agent seems to be making the process complicated. We can't be the first people to ever want to do this. Any suggestions?
Hi and welcome to the forum!
Your estate agent isn't making things complicated, he's just informing you how complicated your plans are!
A consultation with the Notaire should be your first action, he/she will explain the procedure for splitting property which formerly had one owner. You'd have to pay a Géomètre's fees, not to mention all the various taxes and legal costs involved.
You should be aware of everthing involved with making a "building" habitable. For example a "barn" would have to get its agricultural status amended and you may have problems getting a Permis de Construire to convert it into a habitable dwelling. The Mairie can advise you on this. They can also advise on your friends' plans for renovating the farmhouse.
So, Notaire and Mairie before you rush into things!
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Old Jun 20th 2017, 6:32 pm
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Default Re: Moving to France

I hear loud alarm bells ringing. Don't sign anything unless you have it in writing that you will be granted permission to turn the barn into a residential property. Without permission it cannot be done, and permission is by no means automatic, it depends on a variety of factors. The mairie will be able to make an educated guess, but until you actually have permission in black and white, either don't sign the compromis or have a clause inserted in it that the sale is conditional upon obtaining planning consent to turn the barn into a residence.
I'm sure your notaire will advise you but as dmu says, you need to listen to what he's telling you, not try and dismiss it. France isn't nearly as casual about these things as the UK is, and if you can't get permission to do what you want then you can't do it, end of.
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Old Jun 20th 2017, 7:18 pm
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Default Re: Moving to France

Thank you dmu and eurotrash for your informed replies. We have acted on this with our agent and are awaiting her reply. We have not signed anything yet. Thank you for your advice.
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Old Jun 20th 2017, 8:08 pm
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Default Re: Moving to France

Don't forget that estate agents can vary a lot in terms of knowledge, competence and honesty. Their job is to sell houses, that's how they make their living. Notaires on the other hand are highly trained professionals whose job is to ensure that transactions proceed correctly and fairly and all parties understand the implications and possible consequences of what they're signing, and they have no vested interest. Hopefully you have a good estate agent but if you have any doubts at all, check with a notaire. Better safe than sorry. Good luck with the project.
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Old Jun 20th 2017, 8:35 pm
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Default Re: Moving to France

Originally Posted by EuroTrash
Don't forget that estate agents can vary a lot in terms of knowledge, competence and honesty. Their job is to sell houses, that's how they make their living. Notaires on the other hand are highly trained professionals whose job is to ensure that transactions proceed correctly and fairly and all parties understand the implications and possible consequences of what they're signing, and they have no vested interest. Hopefully you have a good estate agent but if you have any doubts at all, check with a notaire. Better safe than sorry. Good luck with the project.
+1
An estate agent isn't competent (in the legal sense) to proceed with splitting up parcelles. Only a Notaire can, at a cost. Neither can the agent know whether a Permis de Construire will be granted. Only the Mairie can advise.
@Endonurse - hopefully your agent will repeat all the above advice, possibly with details of the costs of splitting up a parcelle. It would be interesting for any one else with this project, to have figures (e.g. Géomètre's fees, set taxes, Notaire's fees.....)
Don't sign anything until you've received official confirmation (Notaire, Mairie) that you can do what you're planning.
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Old Jun 20th 2017, 9:33 pm
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Default Re: Moving to France

" Don't sign anything unless you have it in writing that you will be granted permission to turn the barn into a residential property. Without permission it cannot be done, and permission is by no means automatic,"

This 1000x.

A friend of mine is an architect near Toulouse and one of the things she does is prepare the plans to get planning permission on properties like this. It can be very difficult with regulations changing all the time.

As all the others have said, disregard the estate agent and go straight to the notaire with your questions. The notaires job is is to ensure a legal sale, not necessarily to look after you though. A good one will. An estate agent's job is to sell the place, that's it.
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Old Jun 21st 2017, 4:51 am
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Default Re: Moving to France

Also, it's worth checking the building normes that you'd have to comply with if you do get permission. I suspect (but not totally sure) that converting a barn into a house would involve full compliance with the current normes for new builds, ie a high standards of insulation/energy efficient design/carbon neutral footprint, you need to submit precise calculations along with the plans to show projected energy consumption, and depending on the building to be converted meeting the normes can be quite challenging and expensive. PF will probably know more about this than I do.
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Old Jun 22nd 2017, 6:10 am
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Default Re: Moving to France

Originally Posted by dmu
+1
An estate agent isn't competent (in the legal sense) to proceed with splitting up parcelles. Only a Notaire can, at a cost.
Actually, it is an arpenteur who has to deal with this, not a notaire.
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Old Jun 22nd 2017, 6:49 am
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Default Re: Moving to France

Originally Posted by InVinoVeritas
Actually, it is an arpenteur who has to deal with this, not a notaire.
Is there a difference between an arpenteur and a géomètre? Whatever, he/she's the one who marks out the land and presumably provides the new plans for the Cadastre.
What I meant was, the Notaire is the only one who can deal with the legal side of the split.
In fact I'm now wondering whether the whole parcelle has to be bought as such before it can be split up. If I were the owner, I wouldn't want the bother and expense of doing it for two potential buyers....
@endonurse - have you had feedback from the estate agent?
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Old Jun 22nd 2017, 7:21 am
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Default Re: Moving to France

Hi thanks for your replies. The estate agent was meeting the Notaire yesterday. We have not heard back yet. The Notaire has advised us on the subject of Indivision and SCI Immoblier. Which gets a little confusing because we thought we could jointly buy the whole property together.Then divide into two homes each with a share of the land. This seems to be causing problems because we (husband and myself) are not related to the other buyer. Then the inheritance laws were mentioned. So just waiting for a reply from estate agent. Please if anybody thinks of anything else let me know.
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Old Jun 22nd 2017, 9:28 am
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Default Re: Moving to France

Originally Posted by Endonurse
Hi thanks for your replies. The estate agent was meeting the Notaire yesterday. We have not heard back yet. The Notaire has advised us on the subject of Indivision and SCI Immoblier. Which gets a little confusing because we thought we could jointly buy the whole property together.Then divide into two homes each with a share of the land. This seems to be causing problems because we (husband and myself) are not related to the other buyer. Then the inheritance laws were mentioned. So just waiting for a reply from estate agent. Please if anybody thinks of anything else let me know.
Hi, isn't it possible to communicate directly with the Notaire? "Lost in Translation" and waste of time spring to mind...
Also, don't forget that you've got to be sure that the Mairie will grant you in particular a Permis de Construire (for the barn). Even without the problem of indivision, you can't be sure of what you'll be allowed to do.
If you really want this property, I'd be inclined to consult the Notaire and the Mairie personally, accompanied by the Agent if your French isn't up to it.
P.S. If either couple has children, are recomposed families, or not legally bound (= simply "partners"), a consultation with the Notaire is essential anyway, in order to protect every one's interests. French Inheritance Laws being what they are....
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Old Jun 22nd 2017, 6:34 pm
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Default Re: Moving to France

I consulted my in-house lawman (retired OH) who confirms that the géomètre will mark out the boundaries of the future division, but in the presence of and with instructions by the several buyers concerned. Unless he/she has been given carte blanche, which would be foolish, it's not up to the estate agent to instruct the géomètre where to place the demarcations.
The simplist way would be for the couple wishing to keep the farmhouse to buy the whole parcelle, and then sort out the division afterwards. This involves the sale of the whole parcelle, followed by its division, and then the sale of the barn and a chunk of land from the owners to the other couple. These procedures will take time and cost some....
And, as already stated, a definite confirmation from the Mairie that the barn will be granted a Permis de Construire on the basis of the plans submitted, should be obtained. To advance the procedure, a clause can be included in the Compromis de Vente whereby the Contract will be invalid if this Permis de Construire isn't granted. There again, it's not the estate agent who'll do this, but the Notaire, not to mention the Architect who will submit the plans, as proposed by pf above.
Conclusion, the principal actors in this complicated scenario are the two couples, Notaire, Mairie, Géomètre, Architect, with the estate agent playing a secondary role, making no decisions.
Hope this is clear, but the bottom line is that, with your complicated project, it's best to deal directly with all the main actors concerned.
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Old Jun 23rd 2017, 8:29 am
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Default Re: Moving to France

Does the existing parcel have bornage? Ask the seller. Consider having the bornage a condition of the sale.

If the bornage is undefined, you may need this to be done to fix the boundary with the neighbours. This all happens before you consider any subdivision.

For us, it was the géomètre who organised the bornage and implemented parcel changes.

One consideration when subdividing a parcel is the effect on the "le coefficient d'occupation des sols" (COS). This calculated value affects how many meters can be built upon within each parcel. You should be fine but better to be aware of these calculations beforehand.

Please talk directly with a notaire. This is essential to protect you and understand your risks. You can talk to any notaire in France; many speak English and they do not have to be local to the property.

As dmu advises, talk directly with each party involved.

Good luck!
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Old Jun 23rd 2017, 9:30 am
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Default Re: Moving to France

+1 to opening a dialogue direct with the notaire and seller. I think the average estate agent is going to be well out of their depth here, hence at best they will simply pass on messages and at worst the message will become garbled.
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