Stonefamily

Myself, my wife, and our two (18 & 21 year old boys) are in the UK (Bournemouth) and are at early planning stages of our move to Poitou Charente area of France in 18 months or so. We are looking to buy a gite complex and possibly a small campsite to run as a family business. We should be able to purchase with little or no mortgage and are beginning our homework stage of pricing up various elements of the journey.
We have a fairly large 3 bed house plus 3 cars. We can drive the cars down, but are fit and happy to pack a container ourselves as we have heard horror stories of removal firms, but not ruled them out yet.....
We've seen a few businesses for sale on various websites but want to get a few opinions from people who have already made the move with regards to costings and things to watch out for and how to make the most of this opportunity.....
lookung forward to hearing from some of you soon....
Regards

Richard

EuroTrash

Ey up, Stonefamily

Quite honestly, I can see you're itching to get on with the move, but I think a year ahead is too early to hope to set in stone the cost of the move. You'll never get a firm quote that for far ahead, what with various governments playing silly beggars with fuel tax, and fuel being the biggest part of what hauliers base their prices on. But there's nothing to stop you getting a ball park quote of what it would cost you this month from eg Removals to France | Moving to France | Schepens International Removals No need to tell them you're not moving for over a year!

18 months should give you plenty of time to look at recurrent costs like taxes, business charges, healthcare for the 4 of you, and things like that - it's those sort of ongoing month after month, year after year outgoings that are going to be the backbone of your costings and the overall viability of it, not one-off expenses like the move itself. FWIW I think you'd need a pretty substantial and successful holiday complex to keep four adults all year round in the style to which they'd like to become accustomed, unless some of you will have other income streams.

Tweedpipe

Those same thoughts went through my noodle when I read the initial post.
Plus if the OP has had a chance to look through immobilier sites, and especially LeBonCoin for Gites Poitou Charente, one must surely ask the obvious question, 'Why are there so many up for offer?' Sure, some folks get old and wish to retire from their gite obligations, but a shrewd question for a prospective buyer might be, 'Why are so many others selling up?'

Stonefamily

Thanks guys. The boys will be living with us and will sort their own careers out in time (probably not in France) Without a mortgage, from what I've seen so far, although not proven by accounts, our living expenses should be easily viable with 5 or more gites ? Based on 12-15 week rental each at 5-600 euro p/w each. We would then have a go at adding a campsite (subject to space and the usual planning permission). Or am I being over optimistic?

EuroTrash

One thing you need to build into your sums, or maybe you already have in which case ignore this post, is that in France unlike the UK you cannot just rock up and automatically be "in the system". Entitlement to NHS cover etc in the UK is basically based on residency, so just 'living' day to day doesn't actually cost anything (apart from food and stuff obviously) and we Brits tend to take that for granted. However the French system is based on contributions, and if you're not contributing you have no entitlement, and if you're not entitled to state healthcare then you need to get private health insurance, because having adequate health cover is a condition of legal residence; so there is a cost to just living here. So obviously you and OH will pay cotisations through the business (do check out the rates because it's way way higher than NICs in the UK - plan on a basis of 40 per cent of your profit disappearing in cotisations) but you would need to sort something out for the boys too, since AFAIK at their ages they'll be classed as independent adults so they'll need some kind of health cover in their own right.
Financially speaking, the social contributions are what you have to budget carefully for about living in France, so when you look into turnovers etc, be aware that significantly less of it will stay in your own pocket in France than if you were running the same business in the UK.

dmu

.... and, depending on how long they've been on the market, "why hasn't any one bought them?"
ET has posted pertinent info which must be researched seriously, particularly for the sons' respective healthcare insurance, while they're "sorting out their careers in time". If you set up a business structure with them as employees, your côtisations will be horrendous. Is their French adequate enough to compete against French English-speaking candidates with the same qualifications, for any other jobs going?
What income would be coming in out of season? Something else to consider, unless the gîtes are near Futuroscope or other all-year attractions. Even if there's no income coming in, I believe that côtisations have to be paid?
Regarding a campsite, info can be obtained by googling "réglementation de campings", which might make you reconsider the idea.
Research, research, research is the key word. All the best with your decision!

EuroTrash

Don't be too put off, it can be done! But being a newly-arrived 'inactif' with no entitlements in France, ie living here and not working, can be quite tricky.
Re the campsites, small ones are a lot easier to set up than big ones ;-)
Best advice is, once you've narrowed it down to the area and even the commune where you are going to live, make contact with the various organisations that exist to help new businesses. There is free help and advice out there, a lot of communes are very keen to attract new business, and a professional business advisor will tell you about any grants, tax breaks or other assistance that you might qualify for.
I know you don't want a hotel, but there's a commune not far from me that's been trying for years to tempt somebody to open a hotel there! They've got tourist attractions coming out of their ears but nowhere for visitors to stay or eat, so they get coachloads of day trippers who stop for a look round and then move on somewhere else to spend serious money on accommodation and food. So it's well worth talking to the mairie and seeing how encouraging they're prepared to be.

cyrian

Hi Stonefamily,
Why don't you read the large article in today's ( Oct 25th )Sunday Times Home Section regarding moving to France.
One example in the article is about Simon and Rosie Hill who had to cut back their original plans because of their under-estimate of the set-up costs including planning consent.
They could only afford to develop one gite which is occupied this year for 21 weeks. They state that this does not provide enough income and they have had to do other work to survive.
You should get the magazine in UK supermarkets about living in France and perhaps read the English language newspaper "Connexion".
You could perhaps try to speak with other expats who operate gites in France.
Good luck with your project.

BEVS - perhaps you should try to get this article Adieu to all that | The Sunday Times
unfortunately you need a subscription to read the full article.

EuroTrash

Can't read that cos I don't subscribe, but it sounds on the face of it like just another case of not doing their sums in advance. There's no excuse for under-estimating the cost of getting planning permission because it should be possible to find out near enough to the euro what it will cost and then you add on a safety cushion. Same with set up costs. Sorry but if it came as news to Simon and Rosie that France has tax, bureaucracy and "social woes" (doo wot? does that mean high cotisations or does it mean revolting farmers?) then they really didn't look into things very far. They shoulda asked on BE first
21 weeks occupation is not bad going.
I hope Stonefamily hasn't sunk into despair.

PS to Stonefamily - do you know the laymyhat forum? if not, you'll find useful stuff on there too
http://www.laymyhat.com/forum/viewfo...b3af5dea0284e1

Stonefamily

The reason we subscribed to this was to get more information and thoughts from those who have already made this journey, so thank you all for your input. We don't want to go into this blind and we totally accept that it is highly unlikely to be eutopia with no difficulties. We want to anticipate as many issues as we can, understand the taxation laws and work hard to ensure a happy future for us out there.
Getting first hand information is the key to the success of this venture, so please keep the information flowing......
Questions we need answers (or views on) to in the short term for viability calculations are:
1) roughly how much total % tax liability is there to a self employed venture based on turnover or profitability
2) estimated total costs of moving, including transport, solicitors & purchase taxes (again % would be fine)
3) how much is a reasonable figure to calculate for healthcare costs per person

looking forward to some useful stats, thank you

Richard

EuroTrash

that's 100% the right approach.

1) this is a vast question and would take about a fortnight to explain in detail (and I couldn't do it, you would need a week with a qualified French accountant and a day at the tax office). But basically, income tax is minimal and if you have a low income you will likely pay no income tax. I think that only around half the taxpaying population of France actually pays any income tax. The tax thresholds are here Impots.gouv.fr - Détail du barème d'imposition des revenus 2014 (impôt 2015) and just to explain, you are taxed as a household in France if you're a married couple. So the income figure used is your total household income, and you then divide that by two because as a married couple you are a two part household. Hence a married couple only starts paying tax above 19k or so.

2) You can find out near enough exactly what the costs of buying a particular property would be if you put the property details in here Frais d'acquisition d'un bien immobilier - it is quite high, but that includes everything, notaire's fees, disbursements, the lot.

3) If you run a business, your social security cotisations will be a percentage of income*. Exactly what percentage and how it's calculated, depends on the business structure you choose, but on average it comes out as around 40 per cent of profit. That gets you into the state healthcare system (and also usually puts something into your pension pot, and various other pots) and state healthcare covers around 70 per cent of medical costs. For the other 30 per cent, you can either pay it yourself, but most people take out a mutuelle policy to cover some or all of it. Mutuelles can start at around 50€ per person per month up to 100€ plus, generally the more you pay the better the cover, obviously (eyes, teeth, specialists...).

If your adult sons aren't going to be gainfully employed, I think they will need private health insurance so it is just a case of getting quotes.

The different business structures and the advantages and disadvantage of each are outlined here https://www.apce.com/pid223/7-choisi...juridique.html and you can also start here https://www.apce.com/pid186/espace-c....html?espace=1 and work your way through all the sections listed on the left. You will then start to realise why there is no quick easy answer to your questions 1 and 3.

As you will have realised, social security cotisations are very high. In fact somebody once worked out how many days of the working year are spent earning enough to pay your cotisations, and each year there's a kind of unofficial subversive 'national fête', when people celebrate the day of the year when they can start earning for themselves rather than for Flanby Hollande - is it a date in April, I forget now.

* Edit - that could be misleading because some business structures carry a minimum annual cotisation that you would have to pay for each year the business was open, even if there is no turnover.

dmu

You're going into this with the right attitude!
Can't help with the above questions, but another financial question that you could raise is, how much can a family of 4 expect to spend per month in order to survive?
Insee - Revenus-Salaires - Revenu disponible correspondant au seuil de pauvreté selon le type de ménage en 2013
gives the latest official Poverty Threshold figures for a family of 2 parents and 2 children over 14, indicating that you would need a REGULAR monthly TAKE-HOME income of at least 2083 € to survive, i.e. for the basics, utilities, various insurances, Taxes Foncière & d'Habitation, but not covering Top-Up Insurance (Mutuelle) if you're in the French S.S. System nor private healthcare insurance if you're not, expenses involved with the business, travel, treats, the unexpected.... This sum actually corresponds to two SMICs (Minimum Salary) and many French households on such low income find it difficult to make ends meet when dependent children live at home.
Hope all these figures help! I personally am not actively discouraging you in your venture, but am giving you realistic info to give you food for thought. Fore-warned is fore-armed!

bigglesworth

Some really comprehensive stuff there.
Just a point.
Tax Freedom Day in the UK is 31st May according to ASI. An April date for France is optimistic.
Wikipedia put various dates but mid to end July sounds about right
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jour_d...ration_fiscale
I saw a study recently that looked at Belgium and calculated two dates. One for the population as a whole, and one for those who were liable for tax.
Now that WAS scarey!

dmu

I used to celebrate each month, the date depending on how much work I had!
When I was sole employee in my Sàrl, I calculated that I had to bill, AND BE PAID, half my nominal salary before being able to put anything in my pocket each month. This half salary constituted the côtisations which had to be paid, however much I billed. Not a comfortable situation in lean months, but, at the time, there weren't many alternatives for "indépendents".
To add insult to injury, I was taxed on my nominal salary
To be fair on Flanby (although I don't normally defend him), it was the same situation under Chirac and Sarkozy (who didn't alter Mitterand's policy).

EuroTrash

I'm a bit gobsmacked that the average tax in the UK is 42 per cent. I never paid anything like that - a few quid NICs a month, sometimes not even that, and an accountant's bill of about £200 a year in exchange for him keeping my income tax negligible. My tax freedom day would probably have arrived in January. I can only assume that there are a lot of people at the other end of the spectrum paying relatively far more.

In my experience of having been self employed in the UK and now France, living on a shoestring was so easy in the UK because the system allowed you to earn enough to live on perfectly well before it expected you to start paying any dues, and still looked after you. Free healthcare, no business charges for small businesses as I recall, no training levy or anything like that, and even a small earnings exemption on NICs so you got points towards your pension. They pretty much paid for you to run a business. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to work like that in France. But do I regret moving here and being made to become socially responsible? Nope, although I did splutter a bit at first.

It's probably significant that when Brits say 'tax' they usually mean income tax. In France, saying 'tax' is meaningless, you need to specify which tax, and usually it's not impôts sur revenu because that's the least of most people's worries.