gosprey

My aim is to move to France, while still of working age. Brexit put spanner in the works (hasn't it for so many things!), and unfortunately my life wasn't positioned so that I could more before Dec 2020. BUT my plan is still to move to France...

My profession is such that until I'm fluent it's not safe to work in France. I'm a doctor (a GP) and I strongly suspect "where you hurty?" won't cut it. I can do a few things to keep enough money coming in to live in France while I improve my language skills. But... I'm not sure if these things would be possible/ legal/ allow me to obtain work permit in order to be legal, and I'm struggling to find appropriate information 'post-brexit'.

So, first up I can work online with a UK company doing online GP consultations (being paid in pounds to a uk bank account), reside in france and presumably pay tax in france. The company don't have a french base. (but i'd need not just a long stay i'd also need a work permit I presume?!)
Secondly I can live in france but travel back to the UK (for less than 90/180 days) to work as I am just now, as a self employed locum GP - again I assume I would pay tax etc in france. (is this legal?)
I suspect where both of these will fall down is that I don't have french employer - I'm not providing any services in france, why would a long stay visa plus work permit be granted to me over anyone else? (Please tell me differently!) And I'm also not even sure what category of work permit this might come under.

Last option would be to consider moving and setting up a business in France in order to gain residency. Realistically this would be setting up a property company, buying a couple of properties to rent out, and the income intially would NOT be enough to support me. I would need to still work either online or pop back to the uk to work and presumeably still pay tax on the uk income in france. I'm not sure if I'm more likly to gain residency this way... or if i have to prove my business alone with be earning more than minimum wage from the get go (highly unrealistic with two properties!) While I could easily have enough overall income from online/ uk trip working... these would be seperate from my french business.

It's very frustrating - learning the language to the point of being fluent and therefore safe to work is going to take several years, and I'd LIKE to move sooner - being immersed in the culture will improve language skills significantly more than just learning on a course! But I'm struggling to get advice from anywhere about how realistic the above options are.

Any clues?

cyrian

Hi Gosprey
Welcome to the forum.
I think that you are very brave to consider moving as a GP to France.
You should check with the GMC about the recognition of your medical qualification.
I suspect that you would need to pass a language proficiency test to be registered to practice. (Same thing happens in UK)
Being a GP in France is very different to practicing in the UK.
In France, you are paid per consultation. Perhaps a bit out-of-date but the last figure I heard was €22 per consultation.
There is a national shortage of GPs in rural France because rural GPs cannot earn enough.
Many specialists who are based in hospitals in the UK, have their own consulting rooms in France where the patients can arrange an appointment without going through their GP.
Would you go to a French GP in the UK when perhaps he/she didn't understand you 100%?
You cannot work in France (even online or on the phone) without having the correct business structure.
Google "Professions libérales"
I would suggest that you try to make contact with a French GP to get more information - perhaps through "Alliance Française" - Glasgow or French Consulate in Edinburgh.
HTH

gosprey

Thanks for the Welcome Cyrian Yep, you are entirely right...working as a GP in France is a long term goal - it's not feasable in the next 5 years at least (longer if I can't immerse myself in the language!) Hence my hunt for other options to speed the process!

dmu

Hi, and welcome to the forum!
- No, if you're sitting working in France, you must register a business structure and pay into the French Social Security System. It's quaintly called the Law of the Bum, i.e. where you sit, there you pay your dues. It might be possible to be a "posted" worker, but the UK company would have to pay these "côtisations" which are apparently more expensive than in the UK.... There again, a posted worker wouldn't be eligible for residency in France...
-
https://www.guichet-qualifications.f...-generale.html
gives info on validating foreign diplomas in France, but seems to be limited to EU/EEE countries, of which the UK is no longer a member. You'd have to research this aspect.
- As you're aware, in order to obtain a Visa from the French Consulate, you must show a Work Contract from a French employer (who in turn would have had to prove to the Authorities that they couldn't find a suitable French/EU employee). In a recent thread, the question of a UK citizen setting up a Micro-Entreprise came up, which you could apparently do for managing properties, but a Doctor wouldn't come under the "trades" covered by such a business structure, as he/she is "profession libérale", like a lawyer, architect, etc...
Some one more in the know will come along with advice and pointers, but, however fluent you become in medical matters, your plan isn't going to be straightforward.
Why not consider coming over for short periods (after the Covid restrictions there and here) to decide where you'd like to settle, then, if you think that France is ideal for your retirement, buy a holiday home where you can move when the time comes?
P.S. This has crossed with Cyrian's post which confirms my reticence. (A G.P. is paid 25€ per consultation at present.)
I've found the link concerning UK citizens wishing to create an enterprise after 1st January 2021
https://www.guichet-entreprises.fr/f...ntreprise.html
from the recent thread entitled "Working from France"
HTH

gosprey

Hi! Thanks for the advice - yes, I think being a doctoring doctor in France is out the question currently. Execept for this year we've been coming over for at least 3 months every year, and I was hoping to increase this! Retirement is a long way off - I'm only in my 30s! So wold like to consider a more permanent move without waiting 25+ years

I'll have a close look at that link thanks! That looks like the kind of info I'm after.

I could of course just wait and hold my breath and hope Scotland become indepedant and get back in might be a long wait!

cyrian

My DD is a GP and I know the current pay rate for locum GPs.
As well as your contributions into the NHS pension scheme, you could save excess income into a Stocks and Shares ISA which you could access when you decide to move to France.
You can save up to £20k a year (£40k for a couple) which can grow tax-free until you need it.
ISAs are not tax-free in France.
Another option could be to move to Ireland where GPs are paid between 20€ and 70€ per consultation.
You don't need a visa and you do not have a language problem.
After 5 years residence, you could apply for Irish citizenship.
This would give you EU citizens rights to move and work.
HTH

EuroTrash

Hello gosprey , I wish you would come and be a doctor in rural France, there is a great shortage.
As you're probably aware, most doctors in France operate as independent practitioners (profession libérale), it's an entirely different system from in the UK. Big advantages and big disadvantages.

I wrote a long post about your various options but I've just deleted it because looking at this https://france-visas.gouv.fr/web/fra...e-ou-liberale- under the paragraph about setting up as a doctor, I can't help thinking that if you're young enough and determined enough, maybe you should just bite the bullet and find out what you would need to do to qualify to practise in France? It looks as if France wants doctors. If it's possible, why waste your time trying to figure out other schemes.

dmu

Sorry, I couldn't open this link...
But I second your suggestion to the OP to research how to get qualified to practise in France (and acquire the corresponding Visa to enter France). There's definitely a dearth of G.P.s in rural France - e.g. in my neck of the woods (North Hérault), the earliest date for a routine consultation with the MT is in 5 weeks' time! If it can't wait that long, the receptionist will propose a RV with a marginally less busy collegue, or ask the Doc to ring back.
If finances will allow time off for "retraining", this might be the best solution....

Listen Very Carefully

The Institute of Linguists have various training and resources that are open to non members this includes medical translation etcThis may be of interest
https://register.gotowebinar.com/reg...37836558800396
It is run by a Brit doctor who moved to Spain so whist it will not be exactly what you are after you he may be a useful contact
I would endorse what others have said about GPs in rural France I live in Brittany and there are a number of Romanian Doctors in the area but of course French is an official language in Romania

EuroTrash

Sorry, slip of the finger - here it is again https://france-visas.gouv.fr/web/fra...ee-ou-liberale
It's the standard page about self employed visas but I'd never noticed before that it has a special paragraph about doctors.

dmu

Thanks for that! Unfortunately it's out of date for Brits, being pre-Brexit. Is the UK in the EEE?
There are some Doctors from the Maghreb in my local Clinic, but apparently courses in medical school in their countries of origin are all in French. At one time there were two Canadian Doctors, but they were both from Quebec....

EuroTrash

Yes, the OP would have to find out the new rules.
https://www.bma.org.uk/what-we-do/wo...s-after-brexit suggests that doctors from the EEA can immigrate to the UK but rather oddly, it says nothing about the recognition of qualifications. It seems to imply that doctors are categorised as "skilled workers". I don't know how reciprocal this is.

SgtTroy

Giving online GP consultations is exercising the medical profession. It doesn't matter where your patient is, it matters where you are.

In France, or in any other country, it is against the law to be doing that unless you are registered with the relevant regulatory body (French GMC or whatever).

No matter what you deicide to do, you must not engage with anything that may be considered practising of the medical profession on French territory (irrespective of whether it would be an online consultation, giving second opinions, prescribing medications, etc) before you have obtained the relevant registration with the regulator, which is not a work permit per se, for the work permit you would need a different institution.
The sanctions for breaching the law are the same, if not harsher, as those in the UK.

Prior to Brexit it was possible to apply for a temporary registration with much less hassle, provided you would work for a limited period (weeks or months), this route is no longer available to UK citizens, but any EU/EEA citizen can easily benefit from it.

mnick

No wonder the NHS is in such a state ( long before Covid ). Last time I saw a British GP she went on google to check my symptoms. As regards France I am at a loss to understand why the GP role exists. The first point of call is the pharmacie then a very efficient local hospital for anything more serious with referral to specialists at a bigger hospital if required. So what is the point of a GP?

EuroTrash

In France - to prescribe, to follow up, to manage your medical records, to register ALDs, to write out physical fitness certificates, medical certificates etc. You get a higher rate of reimbursement on treatment prescribed by your médecin traitant including tests, referrals for specialist consultations, medications etc. CPAM wants everyone to have a nominated MT, so they give you an incentive to get one.
I very rarely go to doctors, or chemists either for that matter, but I see them as overlapping but complementary. A chemist can't diagnose a new complaint and prescribe treatment. If I'd had a blood test I wouldn't expect the chemist to discuss the results and advise. If I had a simple complaint such as a skin problem or an upset tummy and I wanted to try an over the counter remedy, I would go straight to the chemist and not bother the doctor.