money matters as a non resident
Sep 30th 2019, 1:16 pm
#1
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money matters as a non resident
Apologies in advance if I am being dim ....
We have pretty much decided what we plan to do in the next few years and basically this will be to keep our UK home and buy another home in France (probably Saint Cyprien area Dordogne) with a view to moving to France permanently when the other half decides to stop working in a bout 3 years time. I am retired and want to spend probably about (just less) than half of each year in the French home - ie wont be a resident and can keep things simple by continuing to keep my UK bank accounts and pay tax in UK until the full move in about 3 years time.
I'd be very grateful for any advice on what would be the best way to deal with cash matters while in France for this in initial period. Being non-resident I can't open a French bank account. Starling and other UK banks offer a Euro account (charge 0.4% per conversion) - would this be a good option?
When we holiday we have found the simplest way is to spend using Santander zero card but obviously when it comes to paying property taxes and utility bills this wouldn't work.
Thanks once again for help.
We have pretty much decided what we plan to do in the next few years and basically this will be to keep our UK home and buy another home in France (probably Saint Cyprien area Dordogne) with a view to moving to France permanently when the other half decides to stop working in a bout 3 years time. I am retired and want to spend probably about (just less) than half of each year in the French home - ie wont be a resident and can keep things simple by continuing to keep my UK bank accounts and pay tax in UK until the full move in about 3 years time.
I'd be very grateful for any advice on what would be the best way to deal with cash matters while in France for this in initial period. Being non-resident I can't open a French bank account. Starling and other UK banks offer a Euro account (charge 0.4% per conversion) - would this be a good option?
When we holiday we have found the simplest way is to spend using Santander zero card but obviously when it comes to paying property taxes and utility bills this wouldn't work.
Thanks once again for help.
Sep 30th 2019, 3:05 pm
#2
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Joined: Apr 2009
Location: Scotland & Touraine [37]
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Re: money matters as a non resident
Hi Bazzer
You can open a bank account if you have a french address or if you are in the process of buying or renting a French property.
You will need to check for a list of documents you will need to provide.
Have a look here: Credit Agricole Britline
I would not recommend Britline if you intend to live outwith Normandy although others have done just that.
Credit Agricole is a regional bank and each region is an autonomous bank. Therefore you cannot expect a full range of services from CA Dordogne for example.
I pay all my French bills by standing order from my CA account. I also have a French bank card for use at petrol pumps and autoroute peage.
I only use this account for household bills.
Otherwise, I use a pre-paid euro Mastercard which I can top up online anywhere and at anytime.
I can also transfer money to my French account using the same service.
I use FairFX but there are several such card providers and FX services.
According to the French - UK Double Taxation Treaty if you are not working and you have a property in both the UK and France then you are considered to be tax-resident of your country of nationality.
You are therefore not tied to 183 days in the UK although I always remain within that timescale.
This Treaty pre-dates the EU and will not be affected by Brexit.
Be warned that "residence" may be affected by Brexit but the rules for "tax residence" are governed by the above Treaty.
HTH
You can open a bank account if you have a french address or if you are in the process of buying or renting a French property.
You will need to check for a list of documents you will need to provide.
Have a look here: Credit Agricole Britline
I would not recommend Britline if you intend to live outwith Normandy although others have done just that.
Credit Agricole is a regional bank and each region is an autonomous bank. Therefore you cannot expect a full range of services from CA Dordogne for example.
I pay all my French bills by standing order from my CA account. I also have a French bank card for use at petrol pumps and autoroute peage.
I only use this account for household bills.
Otherwise, I use a pre-paid euro Mastercard which I can top up online anywhere and at anytime.
I can also transfer money to my French account using the same service.
I use FairFX but there are several such card providers and FX services.
According to the French - UK Double Taxation Treaty if you are not working and you have a property in both the UK and France then you are considered to be tax-resident of your country of nationality.
You are therefore not tied to 183 days in the UK although I always remain within that timescale.
This Treaty pre-dates the EU and will not be affected by Brexit.
Be warned that "residence" may be affected by Brexit but the rules for "tax residence" are governed by the above Treaty.
HTH
Sep 30th 2019, 3:26 pm
#3
Born again atheist
Joined: Jul 2005
Location: Europe (to be specified).
Posts: 30,259
Re: money matters as a non resident
Hi Bazzer
You can open a bank account if you have a french address or if you are in the process of buying or renting a French property.
You will need to check for a list of documents you will need to provide.
Have a look here: Credit Agricole Britline
I would not recommend Britline if you intend to live outwith Normandy although others have done just that.
Credit Agricole is a regional bank and each region is an autonomous bank. Therefore you cannot expect a full range of services from CA Dordogne for example.
I pay all my French bills by standing order from my CA account. I also have a French bank card for use at petrol pumps and autoroute peage.
I only use this account for household bills.
Otherwise, I use a pre-paid euro Mastercard which I can top up online anywhere and at anytime.
I can also transfer money to my French account using the same service.
I use FairFX but there are several such card providers and FX services.
According to the French - UK Double Taxation Treaty if you are not working and you have a property in both the UK and France then you are considered to be tax-resident of your country of nationality.
You are therefore not tied to 183 days in the UK although I always remain within that timescale.
This Treaty pre-dates the EU and will not be affected by Brexit.
Be warned that "residence" may be affected by Brexit but the rules for "tax residence" are governed by the above Treaty.
HTH
You can open a bank account if you have a french address or if you are in the process of buying or renting a French property.
You will need to check for a list of documents you will need to provide.
Have a look here: Credit Agricole Britline
I would not recommend Britline if you intend to live outwith Normandy although others have done just that.
Credit Agricole is a regional bank and each region is an autonomous bank. Therefore you cannot expect a full range of services from CA Dordogne for example.
I pay all my French bills by standing order from my CA account. I also have a French bank card for use at petrol pumps and autoroute peage.
I only use this account for household bills.
Otherwise, I use a pre-paid euro Mastercard which I can top up online anywhere and at anytime.
I can also transfer money to my French account using the same service.
I use FairFX but there are several such card providers and FX services.
According to the French - UK Double Taxation Treaty if you are not working and you have a property in both the UK and France then you are considered to be tax-resident of your country of nationality.
You are therefore not tied to 183 days in the UK although I always remain within that timescale.
This Treaty pre-dates the EU and will not be affected by Brexit.
Be warned that "residence" may be affected by Brexit but the rules for "tax residence" are governed by the above Treaty.
HTH
Sep 30th 2019, 4:34 pm
#4
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Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 653
Re: money matters as a non resident
You will struggle to get your utilities if you do not have a French bank account frankly as they virtually all require direct debit payment from a French bank account
Sep 30th 2019, 4:39 pm
#5
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Location: Scotland & Touraine [37]
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Sep 30th 2019, 4:47 pm
#6
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Joined: Sep 2019
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Re: money matters as a non resident
Merçi
Oct 1st 2019, 4:29 am
#7
Austin. TX.
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 5,930
Re: money matters as a non resident
Revolut is generating a lot of interest as it is just about to expand into the USA. Might be of interest to the OP?
https://www.finder.com/fr/en/digital...revolut-review
https://www.finder.com/fr/en/digital...revolut-review
Oct 1st 2019, 7:11 am
#8
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Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 223
Re: money matters as a non resident
Thank you Cyrian and others for input - really appreciated.
I had looked at the Britline option and also the HSBC.
I won't be applying for residency for at least 3 years and was concerned that opening a standard (ie not Britline/HSBC etc) locally would insist on me proving that I was bona fide French resident....
that's what I understood for what I have read
but - please confirm : if I buy a house in say the Dordogne I can go into the local CA branch and so long as I can prove I now own a house in the area I can open an account? (without actually being a resident?)
apologies if I have misunderstood
thanks again
I had looked at the Britline option and also the HSBC.
I won't be applying for residency for at least 3 years and was concerned that opening a standard (ie not Britline/HSBC etc) locally would insist on me proving that I was bona fide French resident....
that's what I understood for what I have read
but - please confirm : if I buy a house in say the Dordogne I can go into the local CA branch and so long as I can prove I now own a house in the area I can open an account? (without actually being a resident?)
apologies if I have misunderstood
thanks again
Oct 1st 2019, 7:35 am
#9
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Joined: Apr 2009
Location: Scotland & Touraine [37]
Posts: 3,018
Re: money matters as a non resident
Hi
You are still confused about residency.
You cannot apply for residency - it is a matter of fact governed by the residency rules of both countries but the joint treaty sits above the national rules.
If you live permanently in France then you are tax resident from day 1 and you have to complete a French tax return.
Please read the link I posted for Britline - it explains quite clearly that if you own or rent a home in France or are in the process of acquiring one then you can open a French bank account.
"(without actually being a resident?) " = confused.
As an EU citizen you have a right to live anywhere in Europe if you comply with the conditions i.e. you can support yourself.
Brexit may/will change that.
You are still confused about residency.
You cannot apply for residency - it is a matter of fact governed by the residency rules of both countries but the joint treaty sits above the national rules.
If you live permanently in France then you are tax resident from day 1 and you have to complete a French tax return.
Please read the link I posted for Britline - it explains quite clearly that if you own or rent a home in France or are in the process of acquiring one then you can open a French bank account.
"(without actually being a resident?) " = confused.
As an EU citizen you have a right to live anywhere in Europe if you comply with the conditions i.e. you can support yourself.
Brexit may/will change that.
Oct 1st 2019, 12:33 pm
#10
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Joined: Jan 2012
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Posts: 5,254
Re: money matters as a non resident
Agree with what's been said.
There are thousands of Brits who own holiday homes in France and I imagine nearly all of them have bank accounts. Some banks may not be keen on opening accounts for non residents but most will and you should not have much difficulty. You have plenty of options - French high street banks, international accounts with UK banks, multi currency accounts such as Revolut, I don't know how easy it is for non residents to open accounts with French internet banks but it may be possible? I imagine you will just want to be able to set up direct debits and initiate online payments so check you can do that and off you go. As said it would be very complicated trying to maintain a house in France without a French bank account.
Post Brexit us Brits will probably be subject to the same rules as other non EU citizens, ie without a visa you can spend up to 90 days in Schengen within each rolling 180 period. So if you want to spend half the year in France you could visit for 3 months, go back to the UK for 3 months, and keep repeating that pattern. If you want to stay for 6 months you would need to apply for a visa.
Likewise if Brexit happens then when you get to the point of wanting to retire permanently to France, you will need to apply for visas and go through the immigration routine. In some ways it will make things a lot simpler because your status and your movements will be regulated and there will be no grey area about will I be resident or will I not be resident and when shall I apply for residency, which seems to be confusing you at present.
There are thousands of Brits who own holiday homes in France and I imagine nearly all of them have bank accounts. Some banks may not be keen on opening accounts for non residents but most will and you should not have much difficulty. You have plenty of options - French high street banks, international accounts with UK banks, multi currency accounts such as Revolut, I don't know how easy it is for non residents to open accounts with French internet banks but it may be possible? I imagine you will just want to be able to set up direct debits and initiate online payments so check you can do that and off you go. As said it would be very complicated trying to maintain a house in France without a French bank account.
Post Brexit us Brits will probably be subject to the same rules as other non EU citizens, ie without a visa you can spend up to 90 days in Schengen within each rolling 180 period. So if you want to spend half the year in France you could visit for 3 months, go back to the UK for 3 months, and keep repeating that pattern. If you want to stay for 6 months you would need to apply for a visa.
Likewise if Brexit happens then when you get to the point of wanting to retire permanently to France, you will need to apply for visas and go through the immigration routine. In some ways it will make things a lot simpler because your status and your movements will be regulated and there will be no grey area about will I be resident or will I not be resident and when shall I apply for residency, which seems to be confusing you at present.
Oct 2nd 2019, 12:25 pm
#11
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Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 223
Re: money matters as a non resident
again thanks to Cyrian and Eurotrash and others for input
you are right Cyrian I was momentarily forgetful that I won't be someday applying for residency as such - I was really thinking that if I went into a local bank in say Saint Cyprien (or Sarlat or wherever) they would want to know where I resided on a tax basis - and if I wasn't paying tax in France then I wouldn't have relevant tax numbers etc so therefore might preclude me from opening as French bank account. I am aware the Britline is convenient but maybe not so unless your home is in Normandy - so therefore I will likely avoid Britline.
As the weather gets cooler I start getting more enthusiastic about a move!
thanks all once again
you are right Cyrian I was momentarily forgetful that I won't be someday applying for residency as such - I was really thinking that if I went into a local bank in say Saint Cyprien (or Sarlat or wherever) they would want to know where I resided on a tax basis - and if I wasn't paying tax in France then I wouldn't have relevant tax numbers etc so therefore might preclude me from opening as French bank account. I am aware the Britline is convenient but maybe not so unless your home is in Normandy - so therefore I will likely avoid Britline.
As the weather gets cooler I start getting more enthusiastic about a move!
thanks all once again
Oct 2nd 2019, 10:07 pm
#12
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 287
Re: money matters as a non resident
A cheap and simple way I use for banking in France is using a Livret A account from the post office. You get interest on the account, it is easy to open even for non residents. You can withdraw money by card from a machine or in person at any post office. You can set up direct debits for taxes and utilities, but not for non essentials. I link it to a Currency Fair account and deposit into it when it needs topping up.. I used to have an HSBC account but they shut my account for no obvious reason. No great loss.
Oct 3rd 2019, 6:50 am
#13
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Re: money matters as a non resident
thanks Cardi - I will have a look!
Oct 6th 2019, 11:48 am
#14
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Re: money matters as a non resident
A bit more about the advantages of using a Livret A account.
You can pay bills and send money anywhere online by bank transfer and, usefully, the French authorities are not allowed to dip into a Livret A account as they frequently do when claiming (often wrongly) that you owe them.
You can pay bills and send money anywhere online by bank transfer and, usefully, the French authorities are not allowed to dip into a Livret A account as they frequently do when claiming (often wrongly) that you owe them.
Oct 7th 2019, 7:16 am
#15
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Re: money matters as a non resident
"I am aware the Britline is convenient but maybe not so unless your home is in Normandy - so therefore I will likely avoid Britline."
In fact this isn't correct. We have a Britline account, which we set up while still in the UK, but planning our escape to France. Britline is a France wide, wholly online and telephone bank set up by CA, but independent from the CA branches. We joined because we could use our then UK address as a registered address and neither of us spoke sufficient French to feel confident in something as important and complicated as banking. Nor did we know exactly where we were going to live. The service over the phone is all in English and we have found them hugely helpful in all our dealings with them. They also came in with very reasonable quotes for our mutuelles and car insurance. From what I saw when comparing their charges they were little different from the other banks except for loans, mortgages and the like, but we don't have need of them. We got an introductory higher interest rate for our savings, only for 6 months, but everything helps.
They have also teamed up with one of the international money transfer companies, I forget which, but certainly one we had used in the past anyway and now I simply send money from UK online with my debit card at a good exchange rate and no commission charge as long as it is over £2500.
Britline may still not suit you and you may get a better deal from one of the other suggestions, but I thought it would help to know how Britline really works.
Good luck with it all.
In fact this isn't correct. We have a Britline account, which we set up while still in the UK, but planning our escape to France. Britline is a France wide, wholly online and telephone bank set up by CA, but independent from the CA branches. We joined because we could use our then UK address as a registered address and neither of us spoke sufficient French to feel confident in something as important and complicated as banking. Nor did we know exactly where we were going to live. The service over the phone is all in English and we have found them hugely helpful in all our dealings with them. They also came in with very reasonable quotes for our mutuelles and car insurance. From what I saw when comparing their charges they were little different from the other banks except for loans, mortgages and the like, but we don't have need of them. We got an introductory higher interest rate for our savings, only for 6 months, but everything helps.
They have also teamed up with one of the international money transfer companies, I forget which, but certainly one we had used in the past anyway and now I simply send money from UK online with my debit card at a good exchange rate and no commission charge as long as it is over £2500.
Britline may still not suit you and you may get a better deal from one of the other suggestions, but I thought it would help to know how Britline really works.
Good luck with it all.
