G-J-B

Mine aren't Lycée age yet, but I've no doubt peer pressure and schooling all play a role - it's inevitable wherever you go. They certainly pick up a lot of gros mots and expressions, that I would never have dared use at home.

Yes, there are a lot of 'verrucas' (as my wife calls them) popping up all over the place. Always the same shape and colour, and they take the character out of places. I understand they're cheaper and more efficient - not sure they'll stand the test of time though. Some regions have new builds that look quite okay. For the moment, where I live, the old hamlets with their stone buildings still make up the vast majority of the landscape.

Did your son have an existing UK license? If you want to keep some categories on your license, they ask for a medical.

Sorry it became too much for you. It's not for everybody. I for one love France, and every year I discover a bit more of the country and its history,and I love it more and more.

CamemBert

No, it would be his first licence. The ANTS form first asks whether you are obliged to submit a medical certificate, then, when you tick “no”, demands one anyway. Not just any old medical certificate, but one that has to be taken to the Prefecture to get stamped. However, in the end, after a lot of Googling, he found a (legit) code that allowed him to bypass that ... one problem less.
It will be a few years before I can up sticks, so time will tell what France turns into in the meantime.

G-J-B

I wasn't aware of that, but every time my kids start up one of their out of school activities (martial arts, dance etc.) we always have to get a medical certificate from the doctor before they can start the new year. The French are well known for their bureaucracy. Glad you found a way out for your son, but usually the medicals are nothing more than a few rudimentary checks and a piece of paper - uncomplicated and inexpensive.

Life is a lot like a mirror, we create our own narratives and meaning. Wherever you go, that's where you are. I can understand a country and its culture isn't everybody's cup of tea; some people slot into it easier than others, sometimes you have to work hard to find the things that make it worthwhile. I've been exploring my region a lot this year, and it reinforces everything I love about the country.

CamemBert

My kids also had to get certificates for skiing. The difference is that skiing, dance, whatever, one has the choice of doing it or not. The conditions for driving are meant to be governed by the law, and mobility is not really optional. There's a name for states that don't respect their own laws. I've been here 15 years and spoken the language fluently for 35. I came here expecting good things, and France is a disappointment. (I've also lived in more obviously "difficult" countries, which were actually less disappointing because at least people were on the same page.) Regarding France, though, I am not sure objecting to bureaucrats standing in the way of people's basic rights is quite the same as creating narratives. For my part I never fail to wonder at how uncritical people are. Black man beaten up by a mob of police in his own doorway? Turkish immigrants raided at dawn because their children disagreed with the official narrative? Journalists roughed up by police? Well, as you say, not my cup of tea.

G-J-B

The inconsistencies to how these rules are applied are frustrating - I think people accept that's part of France and its way of doing things. I have heard of the stories you mentioned and other more recent ones, including police violence against civilians that never made it to the news. Having known a police woman who worked in Paris, it's clear in my mind that there are racial issues deeply embedded within these establishments. Some countries are worse than others, but these things happen the world over unfortunately. I've lived in Paris and out in the sticks, and I've never felt uncomfortable, or threatened, whereas in the UK I was often guarded, anxious, wary.

We all seek peace of mind. Hope you find what you're looking for, wherever that may take you.

EuroTrash

If you look for bad things in a country you'll always find plenty and then some.
Either you love the country enough for the good things it has to offer to forgive it its faults and find a way to live with them serenely, or you don't.
Very much like any other relationship really. If you love a person and they make you happy you won't find it too hard to put up with their snoring, lousy driving, inability to keep track of keys, etc. Once you stop loving them, every snore and every clumsy manoeuvre in the car and every time they say Darling have you seen my keys, will set your teeth right on edge.
And it usually seems to be that the higher the pedestal you put your partner on when love was brand new, the bitterer you feel when you start to see their flaws and they topple off that pedestal. Starting off with high expectations is always dangerous, because like you say, you feel disappointed. Whereas really, the person is what they are and the country is what it is, it's not their fault if you expected too much and they disappointed you.
There's my philosophy essay for the night.

CamemBert

Well, and that’s why I alerted the OP to the danger of starting out with high expectations.
For what it’s worth, though, I think it’s not asking too much for a country’s authorities to obey their own laws and not attack citizens gong about their lawful business, and I’ll venture to say that everyone has a role in calling their country to account when these things happen, instead of merely shrugging because it didn’t really affect them. My tuppence worth.

EuroTrash

I think it's a bit unfair to that the French are a nation who shrug their shoulders and don't show solidarity. Protests are very much part of the culture and unlike some countries French law specifically protects the right to protest rather than trying to curb it as is currently happening in the UK. There have been numerous demonstrations against racism in the police and until it's resolved I'm sure there will be more. Did you join the demonstrators?

CamemBert

I did not join the demonstrators. I happen to have a job that expressly prohibits that. But I do call bureaucrats to account when they make illegal demands.Most people here don’t, and that is part of why the system keeps making up the rules as it goes along. If you let minor lawlessness become endemic, it’s likely to keep getting bigger.

G-J-B

I understand you had a bad experience CamemBert, but I'm sure there must be more to it, because I can find instances of these things happening the world over. Name a country, and I can give you stories that will chill your bones, and stories that will warm your heart. As EuroTrash says, it's all to do with perspective - if you let those negative experiences manifest themselves they'll distort your sense of perception.
It seems you're quite decided, so if you do sell up and move, I do hope it all works out for you.

CamemBert

I also have some heartwarming stories about France. And some horrendous ones. No, there isn't really any more to it, except that I don't like to be bullied by bureaucrats, and they are quite imaginative at times in their revenge. I'm not exactly someone that the authorities can easily mess around, so I shudder to think what things must be like for anyone genuinely vulnerable. My perspective involves a lot of looking at France from the outside - that's my job - and it is not always pretty. Everyone gets to believe what they want, of course, but I'd appreciate it if you did not keep suggesting there must be a problem with my perspective; there are plenty of hard facts that anyone can access. The OP still has a choice, which was my starting point. If nothing has happened to you, G-J-B, it'll be because you are not particularly vulnerable and you have kept your head down, but that isn't a very good advertisement for a country's human rights record. In a nutshell, my beef with France is that it sets itself up as a paragon of democracy and yet the rule of law is a bit thin on the ground. I'll be leaving when I can, yes. It does not mean that I have no affection for the country and its people, but I no longer want to be part of its system.

EuroTrash

You've said several times that it's "illegal" for fonctionnaires to request additional documents or proofs, and now you've mentioned "lawlessness", I would be interested to see your basis for saying this. To me 'illegal' means there's a law that prohibits it, which is not the same as there not being a law that requires it.
I would like to read this law because I have always thought it a good thing that not everything is treated like a tick-box exercise. Usually it's more of a dialogue between the individual and the fonctionnaire. The fonctionnaire is trying to understand your situation, not simply tick off that you've provided documents A, B and C. Sometimes documents A B and C are enough but sometimes there are apparent anomalies and in those cases they're trained to look a bit deeper. You often see the phrase "peut apporter par tous moyens la preuve de..." The problem with that of course is that there can differences of opinion over what constitutes "proof", so it does depend on both sides being co-operative. But the very fact that the legislation specifies "proof", rather than "such and such a document", seems to me to endorse that discretion is allowed. Clearly you are well up on all this and it may well be that once I've read the statutes in question I will change my viewpoint.
That aside, as G-J-B says, no country has yet managed to put in place a full set of completely fair and guaranteed error-free systems that simultaneously screen out all fraudulent claims whilst unquestioningly accepting all genuine claims. Most of them are still working towards it. A few seem to be going backwards. Specifically, as I understand it, France is working towards it via technology, through its ambitious public information system that when complete, in about another 10 years I think, will hold joined-up records on all residents, from car registration to healthcare to tax to carte de séjour to every interface with the authorities. Once that's complete there should be minimal need to ask any resident for proof of anything because the information will already be on the database.

CamemBert

@Eurotrash, the quote below is a bit long, but should I hope convince you that there is a limit on what the administration can require you to prove to access one or other right. Public servants cannot simply invent additional criteria that service users have to satisfy. The onus is on the administration to publish the criteria, to make them available to users and then to keep to them. That's a basic principle of, inter alia, international and EU law, which are binding on France. It will certainly be reflected in French case law if not in the texts, but it would take me a long time to search. Importantly, though, for any procedure (access to benefits, health cover, residence permit, whatever), you can consult the criteria to be applied. If the authorities don’t like e.g. your proof of address, sure, they can ask for alternative proof of address (within reason, in good faith), but they can’t ask for anything irrelevant (a medical certificate, for example, in most contexts). Anyway, here’s an example:

From: Les droits fondamentaux des étrangers en France, pp. 13-14, on site of Défenseur des droits:

c. Demandes illégales et discriminatoires formulées pour la délivrance des attestations d’accueil
Tout étranger qui déclare vouloir séjourner en France pour une durée n’excédant pas trois mois dans le cadre d’une visite familiale ou privée doit présenter un justificatif d’hébergement. Cette attestation d’accueil, signée par la personne qui se propose d’assurer le logement de l’étranger et validée par le maire de la commune, est prévue par la Convention Schengen du 19 juin 1990. Les conditions de sa souscription et de sa validation sont quant à elles prévues par le CESEDA. Dans l’hypothèse où l’étranger accueilli ne pourvoirait pas personnellement à ses frais de séjour en France, l’attestation d’accueil est accompagnée de l’engagement de l’hébergeant de les prendre en charge, pendant toute la durée de validité du visa ou pendant une durée de trois mois à compter de l’entrée de l’étranger sur le territoire des Etats parties à la Convention11. Un décret en Conseil d’Etat fixe les pièces qui doivent accompagner l’attestation pour être validée par le maire : un justificatif d’identité de l’hébergeant1, un document prouvant sa qualité de propriétaire, de locataire ou d’occupant du logement dans lequel il compte héberger le ou les visiteurs, tout document permettant d’apprécier ses ressources (bulletins de salaires, avis d’imposition etc.) et sa capacité d’héberger l’étranger accueilli dans un logement décent (superficie, sécurité, salubrité, confort) et son engagement à prendre en charge financièrement l’étranger s’il est défaillant. Saisis de difficultés découlant de cette exigence, les services du Défenseur des droits ont constaté que les listes de pièces requises et les conditions fixées par les mairies concernées étaient contraires aux dispositions du CESEDA en ce qu’elles ajoutaient des conditions non prévues par les textes pour la délivrance d’une attestation d’accueil, comme l’exigence de la part de l’hébergeant d’un minimum de ressources équivalent au SMIC, la non prise en compte du RSA et des prestations familiales dans la comptabilisation des ressources, la production d’une attestation d’assurance maladie couvrant l’étranger hébergé, la production de pièces relatives à l’identité et au domicile de l’hébergé. A l’issue d’une instruction contradictoire, le Défenseur des droits s’est prononcé, dans une décision no MLD-2015-310, sur le caractère illégal et discriminatoire de telles pratiques. Il recommandait au Préfet, en sa qualité d’autorité de tutelle des mairies concernées, d’établir une liste des pièces exigées commune et conforme aux textes législatifs et réglementaires. Cette instruction a d’ores et déjà conduit le Préfet et les mairies à modifier certaines de leurs pratiques pour se mettre en conformité avec le droit applicable. Conscient que les pratiques portées à sa connaissance pourraient ne pas être isolées, le Défenseur des droits formule les observations suivantes relatives aux pièces susceptibles d’être demandées à la personne sollicitant la délivrance d’une attestation d’accueil.