Leave to Remove back to the UK
Jul 5th 2017, 12:06 pm
#1
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Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 4
Leave to Remove back to the UK
Hi everyone,
This is my first post, I'm clutching at straws finding information on Leave to Remove cases from France to the UK.
My husband and I sold up and moved to France last year with our two year old daughter. I am 42 and my husband is 60. We moved after he was made redundant however he move was really quick, from the "idea" phase to move was less than three months. I was railroaded into agreeing with the dream of being mortgage free and me being able to travel back to the uk whenever I liked with DD due to the £100k buffer we would have in the bank. The reality is devastating. I have no money of my own, my husband has spent all the money on a pool amongst other things, is telling me trips to the UK will be limited to one a year. He runs the business here, controls the finance and has a healthy pension pot he can access whenever he likes. Our marriage has fallen apart. We are in separate beds and I just feel trapped. He seems to enjoy the isolation I have with no friends. I am desperate to return to the UK and you can imagine my horror in discovering it is impossible without his consent, which he would never agree to in a million years. My parents have secured an hours free consultation with a specialist solicitor when me and DD return for our final trip at the end of the month. I would welcome to hear from anyone who has gone down he "leave to remove" route in France and won. I can't find a single case!
This is my first post, I'm clutching at straws finding information on Leave to Remove cases from France to the UK.
My husband and I sold up and moved to France last year with our two year old daughter. I am 42 and my husband is 60. We moved after he was made redundant however he move was really quick, from the "idea" phase to move was less than three months. I was railroaded into agreeing with the dream of being mortgage free and me being able to travel back to the uk whenever I liked with DD due to the £100k buffer we would have in the bank. The reality is devastating. I have no money of my own, my husband has spent all the money on a pool amongst other things, is telling me trips to the UK will be limited to one a year. He runs the business here, controls the finance and has a healthy pension pot he can access whenever he likes. Our marriage has fallen apart. We are in separate beds and I just feel trapped. He seems to enjoy the isolation I have with no friends. I am desperate to return to the UK and you can imagine my horror in discovering it is impossible without his consent, which he would never agree to in a million years. My parents have secured an hours free consultation with a specialist solicitor when me and DD return for our final trip at the end of the month. I would welcome to hear from anyone who has gone down he "leave to remove" route in France and won. I can't find a single case!
Jul 5th 2017, 12:36 pm
#2
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Joined: Apr 2009
Location: Scotland & Touraine [37]
Posts: 3,018
Re: Leave to Remove back to the UK
Hi Welcome to the forum.
Sorry I have not come across your situation before.
It would be useful to know
a) if you are a UK citizen with a UK passport?
b) were you married in the UK or France?
c) do you have french citizenship?
PS I have re-read your post and I assume that the "leave to remove" is for your 2 year old and not you.
You need legal advice from an advocate.
Sorry I have not come across your situation before.
It would be useful to know
a) if you are a UK citizen with a UK passport?
b) were you married in the UK or France?
c) do you have french citizenship?
PS I have re-read your post and I assume that the "leave to remove" is for your 2 year old and not you.
You need legal advice from an advocate.
Last edited by cyrian; Jul 5th 2017 at 12:47 pm.
Jul 5th 2017, 12:56 pm
#3
Account Closed
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 0
Re: Leave to Remove back to the UK
Courtesy of ThomsonReuters, FWIW, seems aimed at French citizens (?) -
But
.
Overview
Relocation cases are a familiar feature of family law in France. An increasing number of family cases trigger the relocation of the child either to a different city in France or to another country.
Relocations have become harder to obtain even within the French territory. Judges take the child's best interest into consideration. There are no specific guidelines for relocation. However, French case law provides examples of factors that judges consider as important, including:
A continuity in the education of the child (is the child to be registered in a French or international school? If the child is a native French speaker, the court will favour a French speaking school abroad or an international school with extensive teaching of French).
The existence of links with the new place of residence (nationality, language, family members, previous place of residence and so on).
The age of the child, especially if the child is very young there will be a slight maternal preference.
The capacity of preserving contact with the left behind parent and, if applicable, the French family (what are the local dates of school breaks? How feasible are the trips back and forth? Is there a possibility of skype communications?).
The duration of the stay abroad and reasons justifying the wish to relocate of the parent.
The distance between France and the country of relocation.
A precise description of the child's proposed new environment and the capacity of the parent wishing to relocate to provide adequately for the child's day-to-day needs and wellbeing.
Further, the judges will also consider whether the court of the future place of residence of the child will enforce and/or acknowledge the French order without varying it.
When children are capable of discernment, the judge will take into account their wishes and feelings. Usually, the judge will hear children around the age of eight or older, on their own or on the parents' request, but it can vary depending on the circumstances and maturity of each child (Articles 388-1 and following, Civil Code (CC)) (see Question 15).
However, the child is not a party to the proceedings.
Overview
Relocation cases are a familiar feature of family law in France. An increasing number of family cases trigger the relocation of the child either to a different city in France or to another country.
Relocations have become harder to obtain even within the French territory. Judges take the child's best interest into consideration. There are no specific guidelines for relocation. However, French case law provides examples of factors that judges consider as important, including:
A continuity in the education of the child (is the child to be registered in a French or international school? If the child is a native French speaker, the court will favour a French speaking school abroad or an international school with extensive teaching of French).
The existence of links with the new place of residence (nationality, language, family members, previous place of residence and so on).
The age of the child, especially if the child is very young there will be a slight maternal preference.
The capacity of preserving contact with the left behind parent and, if applicable, the French family (what are the local dates of school breaks? How feasible are the trips back and forth? Is there a possibility of skype communications?).
The duration of the stay abroad and reasons justifying the wish to relocate of the parent.
The distance between France and the country of relocation.
A precise description of the child's proposed new environment and the capacity of the parent wishing to relocate to provide adequately for the child's day-to-day needs and wellbeing.
Further, the judges will also consider whether the court of the future place of residence of the child will enforce and/or acknowledge the French order without varying it.
When children are capable of discernment, the judge will take into account their wishes and feelings. Usually, the judge will hear children around the age of eight or older, on their own or on the parents' request, but it can vary depending on the circumstances and maturity of each child (Articles 388-1 and following, Civil Code (CC)) (see Question 15).
However, the child is not a party to the proceedings.
You need legal advice from an advocate
Last edited by scrubbedexpat142; Jul 5th 2017 at 1:00 pm.
Jul 5th 2017, 2:38 pm
#4
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Joined: Jan 2012
Location: Dépt 61
Posts: 5,254
Re: Leave to Remove back to the UK
Sadly it does sound as if the marriage has broken down. If that's the case, rather than looking at applying for relocation of the child, if you start divorce proceedings would it then be possible to sort out custody as part and parcel of that? I don't know the answer to that, but that would be the first thing I would try to find out. Applying for leave to remove the child as a separate process would have to be done in France and considered by the French courts (I believe) since from what you've said the child currently lives in France and is therefore under French jurisdiction, the English courts have no powers here. Also, it can be a very expensive process. And without money of your own and no divorce settlement, how would you support the child in the UK?
I hope it works out. It's probably no good saying this but France really isn't that bad a place to live, sounds like you have a house with a pool and all, can you really not find any pleasure in the situation? It is possible to make friends and settle in although it takes time. A year isn't long to get over the initial culture shock and make the adjustments, specially if the move was sudden and you didn't have time to prepare yourself mentally in advance. But if you've decided it's not for you, and your husband wants to stay, a split seems the only way. Life's too short to be miserable.
I hope it works out. It's probably no good saying this but France really isn't that bad a place to live, sounds like you have a house with a pool and all, can you really not find any pleasure in the situation? It is possible to make friends and settle in although it takes time. A year isn't long to get over the initial culture shock and make the adjustments, specially if the move was sudden and you didn't have time to prepare yourself mentally in advance. But if you've decided it's not for you, and your husband wants to stay, a split seems the only way. Life's too short to be miserable.
Jul 5th 2017, 4:07 pm
#5
Just Joined
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 4
Re: Leave to Remove back to the UK
Hi Welcome to the forum.
Sorry I have not come across your situation before.
It would be useful to know
a) if you are a UK citizen with a UK passport?
b) were you married in the UK or France?
c) do you have french citizenship?
PS I have re-read your post and I assume that the "leave to remove" is for your 2 year old and not you.
You need legal advice from an advocate.
Sorry I have not come across your situation before.
It would be useful to know
a) if you are a UK citizen with a UK passport?
b) were you married in the UK or France?
c) do you have french citizenship?
PS I have re-read your post and I assume that the "leave to remove" is for your 2 year old and not you.
You need legal advice from an advocate.
Jul 5th 2017, 4:12 pm
#6
Just Joined
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 4
Re: Leave to Remove back to the UK
Sadly it does sound as if the marriage has broken down. If that's the case, rather than looking at applying for relocation of the child, if you start divorce proceedings would it then be possible to sort out custody as part and parcel of that? I don't know the answer to that, but that would be the first thing I would try to find out. Applying for leave to remove the child as a separate process would have to be done in France and considered by the French courts (I believe) since from what you've said the child currently lives in France and is therefore under French jurisdiction, the English courts have no powers here. Also, it can be a very expensive process. And without money of your own and no divorce settlement, how would you support the child in the UK?
I hope it works out. It's probably no good saying this but France really isn't that bad a place to live, sounds like you have a house with a pool and all, can you really not find any pleasure in the situation? It is possible to make friends and settle in although it takes time. A year isn't long to get over the initial culture shock and make the adjustments, specially if the move was sudden and you didn't have time to prepare yourself mentally in advance. But if you've decided it's not for you, and your husband wants to stay, a split seems the only way. Life's too short to be miserable.
I hope it works out. It's probably no good saying this but France really isn't that bad a place to live, sounds like you have a house with a pool and all, can you really not find any pleasure in the situation? It is possible to make friends and settle in although it takes time. A year isn't long to get over the initial culture shock and make the adjustments, specially if the move was sudden and you didn't have time to prepare yourself mentally in advance. But if you've decided it's not for you, and your husband wants to stay, a split seems the only way. Life's too short to be miserable.
Jul 5th 2017, 4:13 pm
#7
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Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 4
Re: Leave to Remove back to the UK
This is interesting reading and I've read similar which leads me to think it could be really difficult to get Leave to Remove, although there are some factors in my favour I think. Thank you for your reply, I appreciate it x
Jul 5th 2017, 5:00 pm
#8
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jan 2012
Location: Dépt 61
Posts: 5,254
Re: Leave to Remove back to the UK
On the face of it you seem to have a good case. It has to be a consideration whether a father in his 70s - if my maths are correct - is going to be the parent of choice to support a daughter through puberty (or is that sexist and ageist and you can't say it? but it seems like common sense to me).
Jul 5th 2017, 6:26 pm
#9
Austin. TX.
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 5,930
Re: Leave to Remove back to the UK
oh dear.
I'm so sorry to hear of your predicament. It's not uncommon and based on what my friends have been through, here is my advice.
You need to get good legal advice immediately and I would get a lawyer in France. French divorce law is applicable for you now, not British. PM me if you need the name of an English speaking lawyer although they are based in Toulouse.
Don't move out of the house.
Keep your's and your daughter's documents (birth certificate, passport) out of the house, at a friend's or a neighbour if you trust them or ask the lawyer to keep them safe.
Get as many bank statements - french and english - printed out as you can. This is to prove your husband's financial status.
Open your own bank account now. It will be really difficult to do this if you wait until you leave or get separated legally. Transfer some money into it.
Get anything negative about your husband documented. Does he pay his business tax etc on time or is he late/behind? Does he have complaints from neighbour's or his business customers?
Finally, get some cash stowed away. Enough for a month's living expenses for you and your daughter.
Do exactly what your lawyer tells you to do and need I say don't try to take your daughter out of the country without your husband's permission.
I'm so sorry to hear of your predicament. It's not uncommon and based on what my friends have been through, here is my advice.
You need to get good legal advice immediately and I would get a lawyer in France. French divorce law is applicable for you now, not British. PM me if you need the name of an English speaking lawyer although they are based in Toulouse.
Don't move out of the house.
Keep your's and your daughter's documents (birth certificate, passport) out of the house, at a friend's or a neighbour if you trust them or ask the lawyer to keep them safe.
Get as many bank statements - french and english - printed out as you can. This is to prove your husband's financial status.
Open your own bank account now. It will be really difficult to do this if you wait until you leave or get separated legally. Transfer some money into it.
Get anything negative about your husband documented. Does he pay his business tax etc on time or is he late/behind? Does he have complaints from neighbour's or his business customers?
Finally, get some cash stowed away. Enough for a month's living expenses for you and your daughter.
Do exactly what your lawyer tells you to do and need I say don't try to take your daughter out of the country without your husband's permission.
Jul 6th 2017, 9:09 am
#10
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Joined: Jun 2010
Location: 1.2 East
Posts: 762
Re: Leave to Remove back to the UK
Sorry I cannot offer any legal advice but if you can find a babysitter join a French language or patchwork class or something. You will undoubtedly make friends and be a bit more independent which is what you are going to need. Remember, you have age on your side.
Good luck.
Good luck.
Jul 10th 2017, 7:27 pm
#11
Banned
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 5,154
Re: Leave to Remove back to the UK
To clarify: you are free to go wherever you wish. If your husband is keeping you as a slave - which you seem to suggest he is (requiring his permission to return) - then I suggest you call the police and report that you've been held in kidnap.
Jul 10th 2017, 7:31 pm
#12
MODERATOR
Joined: Mar 2007
Location: Costa Valencia
Posts: 14,796
Re: Leave to Remove back to the UK
Why are you, a British citizen with a British passport, unable to return to the UK without your husbands consent?
To clarify: you are free to go wherever you wish. If your husband is keeping you as a slave - which you seem to suggest he is (requiring his permission to return) - then I suggest you call the police and report that you've been held in kidnap.
To clarify: you are free to go wherever you wish. If your husband is keeping you as a slave - which you seem to suggest he is (requiring his permission to return) - then I suggest you call the police and report that you've been held in kidnap.
Rosemary
Jul 10th 2017, 7:33 pm
#13
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Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 5,154
Re: Leave to Remove back to the UK
That wasn't clear from the OP's post. Thanks for the clarification.
Thankfully children can't just be removed by one parent to another jurisdiction. Sounds like the OP needs to sort out the personal issues in her life like an adult and work things through.
Thankfully children can't just be removed by one parent to another jurisdiction. Sounds like the OP needs to sort out the personal issues in her life like an adult and work things through.
Jul 10th 2017, 8:59 pm
#14
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Location: Hérault (34)
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Re: Leave to Remove back to the UK
For info, if one parent refuses to give written permission or sign the "Autorisation de Sortie du Territoire" at the Mairie, then the other parent needs a Court Order in order to be able to take the child out of France.
P.S. Sorry, this may possibly not apply to two non-French parents. The OP should enquire at her Mairie....
Last edited by dmu; Jul 10th 2017 at 9:10 pm.
Jul 10th 2017, 11:20 pm
#15
Austin. TX.
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 5,930
Re: Leave to Remove back to the UK
https://content.next.westlaw.com/Doc...ge=true&bhcp=1
Which sets out fairly clearly what happens.
The OP needs to be really careful about wishing to take the child back to the UK as you will see from the article. If she doesn't have a job to support herself and the child in the UK, if she doesn't have a home then she's going to have a hard time getting permission to take the child back.
Which sets out fairly clearly what happens.
The OP needs to be really careful about wishing to take the child back to the UK as you will see from the article. If she doesn't have a job to support herself and the child in the UK, if she doesn't have a home then she's going to have a hard time getting permission to take the child back.