French Aires - business venture
 

Hi - my OH has this mad idea to open a motorhome aire as a small business but I fear if he has his way, it could morph into something bigger when we are supposed to be slowing down (well me anyway) :lol: so I think how we set up initially could be quite an important decision i.e. do we set up a micro-entrepreneur business (similar to our sole trader in UK I understand) or setup a SARL (equiv to Ltd Co). - I currently run my own Limited Co in the UK and it isn't too difficult to navigate once you know how but wondering if a setting up / running a SARL is uber complicated in France.

Also keen to understand any practical aspects /tips such as once you have purchased the house / land, I suspect you would need to get the buy-in of the local mairie to support setting up a business, getting mains elec/water costs if not on the land already etc - any thoughts anyone?

Thanks
Lambs

Re: French Aires - business venture
 

Hi Lambs
France is not business friendly.
It is not as easy to operate a small business as it is in the UK.
The "code de travail" which is the book of employment regulations is large.
You also have to consider the potentially higher social costs involved.
Others will advise further.
Have a look at this site for lots of information:
Notaires de France

Re: French Aires - business venture
 

Thanks Cyrian - will take look

Re: French Aires - business venture
 

Hi again Lambs
I'm a fanatical camping-cariste and I've stayed on aires all over France over the last 20 years or so, so here is my rant.

A bit of background, you may already know this.
20 years ago most municipal aires were free. When I say free, that often included free electricity and free water/waste water disposal. Or maybe there was a "borne de service" where you had to put a couple of euros or a jeton into the slot to get your leccy and water. A small minority charged you to park, mostly down on the Med or other very popular places. Usually it was a commune employee who came round once a day to collect the fees from everyone and give you a ticket, and you had a chat and it was all very friendly and pleasant.
In most cases the aires were created by communes after discussion with the French camping-car association. The association was able to advised on the best layout so that communes provided what camping caristes needed/wanted. By creating the aire the communes hoped to attract tourists and trade, and in turn the association encouraged its members to shop local.
The France Passion scheme https://www.france-passion.com/en/ also grew up based on the same principle. Organisations like Bienvenue à la Ferme also offered motorhome stopovers as an alternative to gite accommodation..
To me those were the golden years of camping-car-ing. Aires right next to the beach, beside the Seine, beside canals, by lakes, in parks, all for free or literally 3 or 4 euros a night, with the boulanger coming round in his van at 8am and saying hello in the bread queue to the camping caristes you'd chatted to the night before, and after breakfast when vans started departing you'd wave goodbye, and sometimes you'd see the same vans at a different aire a few days later. When you passed another camping car on the road you always waved. It was like a little community.

Over the last 5 or maybe even 10 years, aires have increasingly become payant, with ticket machines, automatic barriers etc. I was sad to see this happen, not only because of the cost but because it created a different ambiance to the commune employee doing the rounds every evening, more impersonal. I guess it was inevitable - there was money to be made so people will make it, and also, there was a new breed of camping caristes who weren't playing the game, they were coming with their freezers and wine racks stocked full of supermarket goods, and not shopping locally. Aires aren't as friendly now. I miss the days when most people who bought camping cars did it because they wanted to explore the different regions and discover local foods, local produce etc, and more often than not you'd talk to the people in the van next to you and swap tales and tips about places you'd visited. I had some really interesting chats with random camping caristes. Now a lot of young families just see it as a cheap holiday. They don't want to talk to strangers. They don't wave if you pass them on the road.

These days companies like https://campingcarpark.com/ are muscling in. To me their aires are soulless and overpriced. But that's the way it's going. Their network seems to increase massively year on year, I get regular newsletters from them ever since once in the height of season I ended up staying on a camping car park aire because the municipal campsite I'd had my eye on was full and I couldn't find anywhere else. I bitterly resented paying about the same as I'd have paid at the campsite (I think it might even have been more) to park up on a big concrete car park with small parking spaces and vans packed in like sardines, with a none too clean waste disposal point, no showers or toilets and not enough EHUs for all the vans. I learned my lesson and now if I'm intending to stay at a campsite I always ring up in advance.

So currently you still have free aires including France Passion, you have aires that make a modest charge, and you have the camping car park type places.

Rant over and to get to the point. I think you need to do a LOT of research into this, and particularly location. What other stopovers including campsites are available locally (locally means within a fairly broad radius, motorhomes being mobile things). How will you compete, whereabouts will you position yourself pricewise - 5€ a night, 10€ a night, 15€ a night - and what facilities will you provide onsite - EHU, rubbish disposal, waste disposal and fresh water but also toilets/showers, dish wash point, hedged pitches, security fence? What facilities are nearby - shops, visitor attractions etc. Why would camping cars go to your aire rather than a free one/cheaper one/more expensive one but with better facilities.

As regards business structure - whether micro entreprise would work or not, depends entirely on how much you're going to invest and what the running costs will be. You can't offset actual costs, it's all done on a fixed rate basis, so if your costs exceed whatever the relevant figure is (around 70% of turnover for that activity?) ME wouldn't be the right choice.
Do you have a specific area in mind, presumably you do? What kind of turnover are you estimating?

Let us know how your plans progress, I'm interested :-)

EDIT - deleted a link I gave earlier because on further examination, I don't think it was about France!
EDIT AGAIN - here is the link. If it is about France, it looks useful. I think it is but slightly confused why he seems not to be quoting prices in euros, surely it can't be that old...
https://www.campingcar-infos.com/articles/articles.htm

Re: French Aires - business venture
 

Got so carried away with my rant I forgot to add.
I think that's the wrong way round. You need to talk to the mairie before you buy the house / land, not after. You don't want to buy it first and then discover local planning / land use laws or just local policies make it impossible to use it for the purpose intended,

Re: French Aires - business venture
 

Proceed with utmost caution-there have been loads of Brits who have had an idea to open camping/caravanning sites bought the land etc only to be knocked back by the Commune Be aware that a French Maire wields a lot of power and influence so you need to get him or her onside If you have a commune in mind you need to look at the Plan local d'Urbanisme (PLU) which is similar to the local plan in the UK If you want to have shower/toilet blocks office etc you need to ensure that the land has a Certificat D'Urbanisme (CU) so that it can be built on As ET says you need to speak to the Commune because it will be down to them.
Frankly running a business in France is NOTHING like in the UK and you really need to have the business set up properly and in the right format so IMO having a vague idea is not a runner especially if Brexit goes wrong and Brits need a minimum income You may find speaking to the Chamber of Commerce helpful www.cci.fr

Re: French Aires - business venture
 

You might be interested in this link http://www.service-public.fr/particu...osdroits/F2058

Re: French Aires - business venture
 

Hi,
As ET says, make sure that the Mairie will allow you to set up this business, before actually buying the land/house!

On the Sàrl front, I must warn you from experience that the social charges to be paid on the Gérant's salary are crippling, i.e. approx. 50% of the nominal salary (employer's and employee's contributions for a Cadre, among other taxes and levies), meaning that, say for a salary of 1500€, you must pay 750€ per month to the URSSAF & Co. even if there's no money coming in. For the spouse who would be a simple employee on a lower salary, the percentage is probably the same, less the contributions for Cadre. I was Gérante of my Sàrl without any employees, and can't be sure. And it wouldn't work to give the Gérant a low salary, as they are classified as Cadres who should have a correspondingly high salary. Best to consult an Expert-Comptable who can advise on all fiscal, social, legal, administrative.... aspects, of Sàrls, of which there are many, and suggest other business structures....
Before the status of Auto-Entrepreneur was created, I used to be "indépendante", with insufficient healthcare coverage and the prospect of peanuts for a pension. OH advised me to set up this white elephant whose sole advantage for such a small business was the prospect of normal healthcare coverage and future Pensions. All's well that ends well, but I had to count on OH during the lean months... I certainly wouldn't recommend considering an Sàrl for your business!!

Re: French Aires - business venture
 

Hi EuroTrash - :goodpost:

Thanks for the 'rant' but you raise a lot of good points so let me dissect and gave some sensibile responses.

1. Location – we are not fixed on any one area but plan to spend year 1 travelling around France in our moho. We have already ear-marked some areas we would like to live in to benefit from the warmer climate. From our research (France Passion/Park4anight) when planning the year 1 trip, lot of places where this is no aire / motorhome service point so there are gaps in the market provided we find the right location etc.
2. Investment – as this will not be our main source of income, we plan to purchase a house with land so a visit to the local mairie is a MUST before purchase and also checking out what we can do / not do with the land e.g. agriculture – lots of things to consider before we even go ahead with shelling out any money
3. Facilities – keeping the facilities to a minimum e.g. waste, water, electricity (solar), shower block / toilets. Fortunately, we have a family of tradesmen so that should help and with the help of local tradesmen who can keep us right on rules etc.
4. Pricing – pricing will be largely based on municipal charges and possible a tiered charging i.e. parking only, parking and elec, or all 3 plus showers etc. Landscaping will also be in place to make the place appealing…so many of the place we have stayed are glorified car parks
5. Consents / bureaucracy – fortunately running your own limited company in the UK is bureaucratic enough although appreciate the French have turned this into an art-form so we plan to use a good English/French speaking notaire who can help us navigate around this mine field (we hope)
6. Marketing – I have a love of the internet and technology is my current line of work so I totally understand the need to differentiate yourself from the competition so marketing our aire will be my job....oh goody
7. Surrounding area – I am not much for packaged holidays i.e. sitting in one place, so all our holidays are independently planned so what is around us is really important to us so lots of research to gather whilst we are on the road i.e. what to do / see, points of interest, local town, access to city etc
8. Business structure – initial thoughts are to setup a micro-entrepreneur with a capital investment circa £10-£20k backed up with a solid business plan i.e. P&L,, revenue outgoings, capital asset outlay, marketing, insurance, accountants etc etc.

Whilst the aire is primarily my OH’s idea, at this point, I am not committing to anything as its not in my nature to jump in without covering all the bases. Luckily we do have experience of setting up 2 businesses in Cyprus which was no mean feat given the language/alphabet challenges 😊. We are also thinking about becoming camping holiday site assistants for a season which may or many not put the OH totally off the idea…my dream though is to simply put my feet up in a nice spot glass in hand watching the world go by and not land up working full-time running a small business.

Lambs

Re: French Aires - business venture
 

@DMU / Listen Very Carefully - thanks also for your thoughts, appreciated.

Re: French Aires - business venture
 

Clearly you have thought about it.
A few comments below.

Re: French Aires - business venture
 

Some comments.
1 - If you go travelling for a year you will have to have some sort of fixed base in France to be registered before the year is up
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/living-i...-and-residency
2 - Seeing that your preference is to live in a warmer climate. Have you ever tried cleaning toilets, doing maintenance to land or any other physical work during the high summer temps for hours on a row?
3- Have you thought about purchasing a business with all the permissions in place?

Re: French Aires - business venture
 

Hi CSE
Yes we have both worked in high temperatures (45c avge in summer) as we lived in Cyprus for a number of years. One of our businesses was actually cleaning villas/apts so toilet cleaning was right up there (or down there) 😋....and a lot of the properties didnt have AC or you needed a card to activate it...it was very hard work.

Re your point about buying something already setup - on a max budget of £20k all in it wont go far 🌝 - done lots of research.

OH will be an Irish citizen by the time we plan to leave the UK so we are unaffected by Brexit....thankfully.

Thanks to everyone who provided links to the the official sites, those were really helpful. There is a lot to think about but as I said at the top of this thread this isnt my dream/idea but you have all given me enough 'ammo' to hopefully put my OH off and he can just retire 😅

Re: French Aires - business venture
 

Hi ET
OH was not planning a big moho service site so if there are restrictions on nos. even more ammo to put the OH off 😋... and OH' s plan was to do this solo with no staff.

Re: French Aires - business venture
 

I kinda took that for granted - employing staff would make it a definite non starter IMHO, French labour law being what it is..
Just so long as he is aware that if he chooses ME, 14%ish of his turnover is going to disappear in taxes straight away regardless of how much of that turnover represents profit, with potentially more taxes to pay at the end of the year, So for every 10€ he charges, that's around 8,60 for him and 1,40 for the state.
Why does he actually want to do this? Is it for the entrepreneurial challenge, or for the pleasure of meeting other camping caristes, or because having an occupation is part of his identity? How you set it up obviously depends to a large extent on what you hope to get out of it.

Re: French Aires - business venture
 

My opinion - which I don't put on the forum very often - is that the easiest way to move to France is either:
a) to an existing job where support is available from the employer/colleagues.
b) a retired person/couple who have enough money to fund their lifestyle.

Other options are possible but imo add extra layers of difficulty to overcome.
There are plenty of members on BE who have done just that and have made a successful move to France.
Some people thinking of the move are on a relatively low or fixed income.
This can leave them vulnerable to fluctuations in the exchange rate.
Some do not speak French and French is a difficult language to learn - school French won't go far.
Some want to bring children which can be a positive but has its own problems.
Some want to move an existing business from the UK to France and don't understand the more rigorous business regime.
Some want to look for work against a backdrop of higher levels of unemployment in France.
Some potential expats tick several of these boxes.
I think that you probably fall into option b) above and your intention to "test the water" before you decide is the right thing to do.
You seem to be approaching your proposed move with your eyes wide open.
Keep asking specific questions as they arise in your research and good luck with your move.

Re: French Aires - business venture
 

Do either of you speak French adequately to cope with all the Bureaucracy? If you're looking for more ammo, this would be a sound argument, esp. if it's you who would be doing marketing (= administration).:)
P.S. and on doing so, you would be an employee....

Re: French Aires - business venture
 

Hi Cyrian,

Fortunately we will be lucky enough to be in bracket b) :thumb:.
OH's motives

1. We moved to Cyprus 13yrs ago with the prospect of retiring but after 7mths of living la vida, we were both bored (expletive) so he feels its likely to be the same in France but I'm 13yrs older now so planning to hang up my work boots. OH has a physical job who loves a bit of DIY so keeping busy is important to him
2. Its definitely not for the entreprenurial challenge lol. He is still relatively young (50) and really enjoys meeting ppl so running a small ME whatever that finally is (or not if I have my way 😅) would give him something to keep the cogs turning. FYI Whilst in Cyprus he ran his own pool co. It was physically hard work in searing temps in summer and he is ex-military so tough as old boots 😅

Someone mentioned ME taxation in an earlier post - once we have a clearer picture of what is entailed in setting up / running an ME, we plan to factor taxes into the pricing structure as well as factoring PoS costs something commonly forgotten about when preparing a business plan and we have the added benefit of not walking into this with 'voir la vie en rose'.

Thanks again for all the help and sure I will have LOTS of random Q' s relating to this thread.

Lambs

Re: French Aires - business venture
 

I don't think anyone has mentioned this so far, so here goes.

It is known to most expats that when applying for almost anything in regard to immigration, permits, licensing, your french language skills are vital of course.

Here is the more difficult bit. Even with those skills in french it still depends on the person behind the counter as to whether or not you will be successful in getting applications done and in your favour.

Things can get dragged out for no reasonable cause. Fees may vary. Clauses difficult to discern.
Granted it is safer and easier in France than Greece or Italy, but still it can become a nightmare compared to British clarity, consistency and simplicity.

The other problem I foresee is that its impossible to plan for that. It isn't like you can find consistency in what you are likely to face in this regard. How can you plan financially for what any specific township may require. Even if you telephone and speak with someone and they tell you everything wil be fine, it is no guarentee that when you arrive at the desk it turns out not to be the case. In the UK things are very much more straight forward and there is a lot you can find out on gov websites. That is not as available in France yet, slthough they are working on it.

Proceed with extreme caution!
After all that I do wish you both a great semi-retirement in France. I hope you find a little business to run that is enjoyable and stress free in future.