Extortinate Labour Rates in France - what are daily rates for various trades?
Jan 7th 2016, 5:43 pm
#16
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Re: Extortinate Labour Rates in France - what are daily rates for various trades?
Artisans are specialists. You don't tend to get "general builders". Houses are built, of course, but the guys that lay the bricks and put in the hours aren't artisans and it's said that many of labourers are sans papiers working for low wages, in the Ile de France region at least.
Well, putting bricks in does require a skill comparable to skills of roofers. Are they paid a lot less than these artisans? Why don't they offer their more competetively priced services / how to find them?!
Jan 7th 2016, 6:48 pm
#17
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Re: Extortinate Labour Rates in France - what are daily rates for various trades?
Because they're employees of the building company. They don't have any business overheads or business risks or responsibilities to carry, they don't have to buy trade insurance, they haven't had to go through the same training and apprenticeship programme that 'skilled' artisans have. They just work under supervision for the company that builds houses and collect their wages at the end of the month, that's all they can do.
Jan 7th 2016, 7:55 pm
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Re: Extortinate Labour Rates in France - what are daily rates for various trades?
Because they're employees of the building company. They don't have any business overheads or business risks or responsibilities to carry, they don't have to buy trade insurance, they haven't had to go through the same training and apprenticeship programme that 'skilled' artisans have. They just work under supervision for the company that builds houses and collect their wages at the end of the month, that's all they can do.
*Riskswise it is arguable what carries more risk. If you are employed and market dries up you could loose your job and ALL your income. Self employed might see a decline in business. Because they have no factories, no large amount of stock, no staff on payroll their business risks are minimal and I would argue smaller than for the employed. The biggest risk is that they do a bad job and get sued - well that what they are paying insurance for!
*Competence wise - a bricklayer or roofer has to be confident whether working for employer or for himself. Bad job in employment might mean getting sucked. Bad job in business? Next client, please!
*taxes / insurance. While employed might not pay as much tax (whatever you call it) their employers do pay tax. Their employers still esnure their work. So the employer still incurs the costs yet able to build houses even at those cheap prices. And while insurance is probably susceptible to economies of scale, taxes of a bigger business (bit not Google - size) are much less suceptable to being optional through cash payments etc.
Jan 7th 2016, 8:18 pm
#19
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Re: Extortinate Labour Rates in France - what are daily rates for various trades?
*Overheads - these are minimal for artisans as home office / Van are quite minimal expenses (if they have a van/pick up don't really need a car, they have a home anyway so can use some corner for a desk). If they own more serious machinerry they charge for it seprately at quite high rates - so should not affect their labour rates.
Anyways I don't know why I'm arguing this really, I'm not an artisan! But I would point out that you do still seem to be basing your arguments on what you know from the UK. Things seem to work differently in France. Different economy, different mindset. I can't explain what makes France tick, I'm just saying how the mop seems to flop and flagging up a few facts that I've picked up through living here and talking to artisans and folk in general.
Jan 7th 2016, 10:32 pm
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Re: Extortinate Labour Rates in France - what are daily rates for various trades?
Also when working for an employer there is just no option of getting 20-40% of pay by cash free of all taxes.
With regard to paid holidays - well those are just 10% of the rate anyway. Also self employed charge out rates are several times higher than workers pay, so even allowing for business administration time, many can work just 2-6 months full-time per year to end up on the same income as an employed person working hard for 11 months per year doing similar jobs.
Jan 7th 2016, 11:52 pm
#21
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Re: Extortinate Labour Rates in France - what are daily rates for various trades?
self employed charge out rates are several times higher than workers pay, so even allowing for business administration time, many can work just 2-6 months full-time per year to end up on the same income as an employed person working hard for 11 months per year doing similar jobs.
I also don't understand where you're coming from when you keep mentioning this "option of getting 20-40% of pay by cash free of all taxes". Some people do this, some don't; there is a risk involved, you have to be very careful what you do with the 'cash' because if you get caught you are fined far more than you could ever hope to save. 40 per cent would be quite hard to lose discreetly because a 40 per cent difference in income would show in your lifestyle. I don't think there is much doubt that the French tax people and URSSAF are a lot more proactive and hands-on in picking up people who are on the fiddle, than HMRC are. France's tax information system is unfortunately very joined up and sophisticated. It knows exactly big your house is, how much land you own and what the rentable value of your property is, also what car you drive, and what major purchases you made during the year, and it also knows the average cost of living. If according to its algorithms a household's lifestyle couldn't be funded out of its declared income, it flags them up for a control. Plus there are inspectors out and about in the community, and most communes have their snitch. HMRC on the other hand seems to be run entirely by computers these days, you are just a number on a list and the computers only know the figures you write on your tax return, they don't have any data about your lifestyle to cross reference those figures against. So in the UK you can declare what you like, it's like taking candy from a baby, but in France it's a game of cat and mouse and not everybody wants to play, because it's no fun being the mouse if the cat catches it.
Jan 8th 2016, 1:14 am
#22
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Re: Extortinate Labour Rates in France - what are daily rates for various trades?
Very true, ET. Seems people don't know how aggressive tax collection has become in France, plus there are proposals to reward snitches in the future - oh joy!
Jan 8th 2016, 6:18 am
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Re: Extortinate Labour Rates in France - what are daily rates for various trades?
Our next door neighbour was the hamlet's snitch before he died. We had an inspection from the URSSAF once, when he had obviously denounced us, believing wrongly that our handyman wasn't declared.
Unfortunately, we don't know who the present snitch is, and we're very careful to employ a declared worker for visible outside work.
I rather suspect that, even 20 years ago, the snitches were rewarded in some way....
Jan 8th 2016, 6:28 am
#24
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Re: Extortinate Labour Rates in France - what are daily rates for various trades?
I think not
One thing you need to bear in mind is that the French social security system works differently to the UK system, and contributions paid by artisans, companies etc are very much higher. Which obviously affects what people have to charge for labour to run a viable and sustainable business, and it also affects the costs of materials (because labour is used at each stage in the manufacturing/distribution process).
As an example (since I'm just doing my accounts for last year) - as a freelancer in France earning a very modest income, I paid well over 5,000€ in social cotisations. In the UK on an equivalent income I would have paid NICs of maybe around £100. Since moving to France I've had to increase my rates for doing the same work quite considerably.
Then there's the fact that French artisans are obliged by law to guarantee the work they do against defects for, in the case of structural work, 10 years, which means taking out decennial insurance, which increases their overheads. This of course is (in theory) an added value for the client.
But in fact it's pointless trying to compare an isolated element across two different national economies. At the end of the day living in France and living in the UK work out roughly the same in my experience, although certain specific elements differ vastly. Housing is far far cheaper in France, healthcare is far far cheaper in the UK. And people adapt their lives accordingly. The French don't tend to 'do up' old properties nearly as much as Brits do, for the reasons you've discovered - it's expensive and you never get your money back.
So - having work done by artisans is considerably more expensive in France than in the UK and there are reasons for it, it cannot be otherwise, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you haven't been ripped off. I had two small double windows on the ground floor replaced recently for around 1000€ so your dormers do look very pricey. There are plenty of cowboys about, as in every country, so you have to be careful who you use. Comparing with UK prices is pointless but what you should always do is get at least 3 quotes for the job, choose the best and then check that the artisan you have chosen is correctly registered and insured, ask your neighbours if they know him, and if possible see other work that he's done. And if you think all the quotes you got are too high, don't accept any of them and keep looking.
PS. I particularly don't like the sound of your roofer. Did he give you a proper invoice with his SIRET number and insurance details on it? If not, I think you should definitely have laughed in his face and sent him home...
One thing you need to bear in mind is that the French social security system works differently to the UK system, and contributions paid by artisans, companies etc are very much higher. Which obviously affects what people have to charge for labour to run a viable and sustainable business, and it also affects the costs of materials (because labour is used at each stage in the manufacturing/distribution process).
As an example (since I'm just doing my accounts for last year) - as a freelancer in France earning a very modest income, I paid well over 5,000€ in social cotisations. In the UK on an equivalent income I would have paid NICs of maybe around £100. Since moving to France I've had to increase my rates for doing the same work quite considerably.
Then there's the fact that French artisans are obliged by law to guarantee the work they do against defects for, in the case of structural work, 10 years, which means taking out decennial insurance, which increases their overheads. This of course is (in theory) an added value for the client.
But in fact it's pointless trying to compare an isolated element across two different national economies. At the end of the day living in France and living in the UK work out roughly the same in my experience, although certain specific elements differ vastly. Housing is far far cheaper in France, healthcare is far far cheaper in the UK. And people adapt their lives accordingly. The French don't tend to 'do up' old properties nearly as much as Brits do, for the reasons you've discovered - it's expensive and you never get your money back.
So - having work done by artisans is considerably more expensive in France than in the UK and there are reasons for it, it cannot be otherwise, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you haven't been ripped off. I had two small double windows on the ground floor replaced recently for around 1000€ so your dormers do look very pricey. There are plenty of cowboys about, as in every country, so you have to be careful who you use. Comparing with UK prices is pointless but what you should always do is get at least 3 quotes for the job, choose the best and then check that the artisan you have chosen is correctly registered and insured, ask your neighbours if they know him, and if possible see other work that he's done. And if you think all the quotes you got are too high, don't accept any of them and keep looking.
PS. I particularly don't like the sound of your roofer. Did he give you a proper invoice with his SIRET number and insurance details on it? If not, I think you should definitely have laughed in his face and sent him home...
I won't pay people on the black. I can't bear that attitude and around here it's mainly the English that do the black work.
For the OP, it looks like for some reason you are being ripped off. We only use artisans and they all have been great value and great work.
We had 3 new velux windows put in our attic, roof fixed not retiled but all tiles moved into place and repaired where needed, the floor below that was damaged completely re timbered a new loft hatch custom built all for around 8 grand. I would say a similar price to the UK if not cheaper.
I have heard the if you want a house re wiring that can get pricey around here.
Jan 8th 2016, 8:33 am
#25
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Re: Extortinate Labour Rates in France - what are daily rates for various trades?
... probably because they're blind to the risks. There's an art to getting away with it and it's second nature to the French who play that game, but the English who arrive fresh off the boat tend to be too cocky. They think they're clever, the fisc are thick and the people who play by the rules are stupid, and to be honest I can't feel any sympathy for those people when they come unstuck.
Jan 8th 2016, 12:01 pm
#26
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Re: Extortinate Labour Rates in France - what are daily rates for various trades?
That is why only rich people should buy a renovation project in France because you won't get your money back if you employ artisans to renovate it for you.
Have you noticed all the new builds going up all over France ?
I would be interested to know how much you paid for the house and how much the same house (in the same condition) would cost in the UK.
Last edited by Touraine; Jan 8th 2016 at 12:05 pm.
Jan 8th 2016, 12:24 pm
#27
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Re: Extortinate Labour Rates in France - what are daily rates for various trades?
With respect, I think you don't know the facts about self-employment and business structures in France. It really is a very different ball park from the UK system.
I also don't understand where you're coming from when you keep mentioning this "option of getting 20-40% of pay by cash free of all taxes". Some people do this, some don't; there is a risk involved, you have to be very careful what you do with the 'cash' because if you get caught you are fined far more than you could ever hope to save. 40 per cent would be quite hard to lose discreetly because a 40 per cent difference in income would show in your lifestyle. I don't think there is much doubt that the French tax people and URSSAF are a lot more proactive and hands-on in picking up people who are on the fiddle, than HMRC are. France's tax information system is unfortunately very joined up and sophisticated. It knows exactly big your house is, how much land you own and what the rentable value of your property is, also what car you drive, and what major purchases you made during the year, and it also knows the average cost of living. If according to its algorithms a household's lifestyle couldn't be funded out of its declared income, it flags them up for a control. Plus there are inspectors out and about in the community, and most communes have their snitch. HMRC on the other hand seems to be run entirely by computers these days, you are just a number on a list and the computers only know the figures you write on your tax return, they don't have any data about your lifestyle to cross reference those figures against. So in the UK you can declare what you like, it's like taking candy from a baby, but in France it's a game of cat and mouse and not everybody wants to play, because it's no fun being the mouse if the cat catches it.
I also don't understand where you're coming from when you keep mentioning this "option of getting 20-40% of pay by cash free of all taxes". Some people do this, some don't; there is a risk involved, you have to be very careful what you do with the 'cash' because if you get caught you are fined far more than you could ever hope to save. 40 per cent would be quite hard to lose discreetly because a 40 per cent difference in income would show in your lifestyle. I don't think there is much doubt that the French tax people and URSSAF are a lot more proactive and hands-on in picking up people who are on the fiddle, than HMRC are. France's tax information system is unfortunately very joined up and sophisticated. It knows exactly big your house is, how much land you own and what the rentable value of your property is, also what car you drive, and what major purchases you made during the year, and it also knows the average cost of living. If according to its algorithms a household's lifestyle couldn't be funded out of its declared income, it flags them up for a control. Plus there are inspectors out and about in the community, and most communes have their snitch. HMRC on the other hand seems to be run entirely by computers these days, you are just a number on a list and the computers only know the figures you write on your tax return, they don't have any data about your lifestyle to cross reference those figures against. So in the UK you can declare what you like, it's like taking candy from a baby, but in France it's a game of cat and mouse and not everybody wants to play, because it's no fun being the mouse if the cat catches it.
With respect to matching lifestyle to income making it difficult to hide 20-40% of income..... Well with those house prices and those "artisan" prices, that fertile land, cheap forests one on very modest income can amass an multimillionaire-like estate if he is doing everything himself. Someone on very decent income folking out extortionate prices to artisans (another family member) will soon enough be destitute. So I would say it is much more difficult to infer income than in the UK. Also needless to say cash can be spent abroad on holidays, on cash purchases - your neighbours need not know that you had caviar for breakfast bought for cash.
Last edited by SBS; Jan 8th 2016 at 12:32 pm.
Jan 8th 2016, 12:34 pm
#28
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Re: Extortinate Labour Rates in France - what are daily rates for various trades?
SBS we have had loads of work done on the house. Initially by Brits, who almost without exception turned out to be crooks or cowboys. Threw them off the job years ago and wrote it down to experience |(after engaging an avocat and the huissiers)
French artisans around here charge around 150-180 a day. On the books. IME they are professional, helpful, tidy and reasonable. I have lost count of the number of jobs where the plumber or the macon has turned round and said "no charge - you are my client".
A couple of prices. Digging out the old floor in the hangar, supply and level hard core and concreting over total area about 75 square metres plus removal and disposal of debris was 1800
Cutting an opening for a window, supply of window, coin stones and re stoning with fitted shutters was about €800.
We do not mess them around and we do not operate on the balck. At all. (BTW ET are you sure on the obligation for the client to declare? Tthe reason I ask is that I asked the Tresor to help me with the tax bills a few years back, and they wanted to check that the builder had declared the rather large sums of money they could see had gone through my account. They told me not to worry, it was entirely the builder's responsibility to declare, as there was no way I could tell if he had or not).
I do not shop around for quotes - I assume the regular quote is a bit loaded to pay for all the free stuff. They turn up quickly and recognise if it is an emergency - the back of the barn roof came off a few weeks ago and they were here the next day.
I also never query the bill, and pay them immediately.
Perhaps we are just lucky. Obviously there are plenty of French cowboys and crooks as well as Brits. The payagistes and elageurs seem to be the worst. Just had one quote 3,000 to pollard a large lime. Alain in the village will do it for a tenth.
French artisans around here charge around 150-180 a day. On the books. IME they are professional, helpful, tidy and reasonable. I have lost count of the number of jobs where the plumber or the macon has turned round and said "no charge - you are my client".
A couple of prices. Digging out the old floor in the hangar, supply and level hard core and concreting over total area about 75 square metres plus removal and disposal of debris was 1800
Cutting an opening for a window, supply of window, coin stones and re stoning with fitted shutters was about €800.
We do not mess them around and we do not operate on the balck. At all. (BTW ET are you sure on the obligation for the client to declare? Tthe reason I ask is that I asked the Tresor to help me with the tax bills a few years back, and they wanted to check that the builder had declared the rather large sums of money they could see had gone through my account. They told me not to worry, it was entirely the builder's responsibility to declare, as there was no way I could tell if he had or not).
I do not shop around for quotes - I assume the regular quote is a bit loaded to pay for all the free stuff. They turn up quickly and recognise if it is an emergency - the back of the barn roof came off a few weeks ago and they were here the next day.
I also never query the bill, and pay them immediately.
Perhaps we are just lucky. Obviously there are plenty of French cowboys and crooks as well as Brits. The payagistes and elageurs seem to be the worst. Just had one quote 3,000 to pollard a large lime. Alain in the village will do it for a tenth.
Jan 8th 2016, 12:41 pm
#29
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Re: Extortinate Labour Rates in France - what are daily rates for various trades?
Well I do have experience in both France and the UK and the building industry in both countries has been rife with cash work although I have to say the customer's have been just as bad in wanting to avoid TVA/VAT by paying cash.
In France the situation has been made worse by Portuguese and Turks (amongst others) doing cash work.
The risk of getting caught now is much higher and the penalty much greater but it still goes on. If you don't believe me just ask your local building supplies company if you can have a cash account!
In France the situation has been made worse by Portuguese and Turks (amongst others) doing cash work.
The risk of getting caught now is much higher and the penalty much greater but it still goes on. If you don't believe me just ask your local building supplies company if you can have a cash account!
Jan 8th 2016, 12:42 pm
#30
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Re: Extortinate Labour Rates in France - what are daily rates for various trades?
Yes.....that is the crunch.
That is why only rich people should buy a renovation project in France because you won't get your money back if you employ artisans to renovate it for you.
Have you noticed all the new builds going up all over France ?
I would be interested to know how much you paid for the house and how much the same house (in the same condition) would cost in the UK.
That is why only rich people should buy a renovation project in France because you won't get your money back if you employ artisans to renovate it for you.
Have you noticed all the new builds going up all over France ?
I would be interested to know how much you paid for the house and how much the same house (in the same condition) would cost in the UK.