CPAM and PUMa

Old Jan 4th 2021, 2:52 pm
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Default CPAM and PUMa

Hi all and happy new year!

I come back with the same old yet confusing question about CPAM and PUMa. I am wondering if anyone could advise.

I am have moved to France before 31 December, 2 months ago. I am below state retirement age, currently economic inactive in France and will receive a private pension from 2022.

This is so far I have done:
  • I have got a private health insurance for 3 months
  • My current income is the rental income in the UK.
  • I applied for CPAM, but they returned with a letter asking for the S1 form, "le document portable S1 delivre par votre organisme de securite anglais (ou le refus notifie)
  • I have also got an EHIC card, and according to the UK government website, I can use it as long as I stay in France before it is expiry date.
I found information from l'Assurance de Maladie says
You are living in France for less than 5 years, you do not have a paid activity, you are under retirement age and you do not benefit from any rights from a European country.

You can apply for a PUMa health cover after 3 months of residency in France. If your claim is accepted, you will have to pay a contribution to the Urssaf (Union de recouvrement des cotisations de sécurité sociale et d’allocations familiales). If it's rejected, you will have to find and pay a private insurance.

If you are not eligible to get a S1 form, you can't claim for the PUMa's benefits under 5 years of permanent residence unless your situation has changed while you've been living in France (change of income, divorce, long term disease, etc.).
https://www.ameli.fr/deux-sevres/assure/english-pages

As I am not eligible for S1, does this mean I can't have CPAM or PUMa if my circustance has not changed, i.e. economic inactive?

I also find this information:

You live in France and you rent out gîtes or chambres d’hôtes (bed and breakfast)
You rent out chambres d’hôtes (bed and breakfast), you offer tables d’hôtes (evening meals), on a professional level. In other words the revenues from these activities make up your principal income.
You should make contact with your local Chambre de Commerce and contact SSI (Sécurité sociale pour les indépendants [Healthcare for entrepreneurs])
Does my UK rental income fall into this category?

Many thanks

Last edited by zoys; Jan 4th 2021 at 4:11 pm.
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Old Jan 4th 2021, 3:46 pm
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Default Re: CPAM and PUMa

Firstly you have not been in France for 3 months so you cannot apply to join the French health system unless you are working or have an S1 so that is why you were asked to provide your copy of the S1 even though you do not have one as you jumped the gun and the system assumed that you were a retired person with a state pension
Which brings the next point If you are not getting a state pension but are getting say a private or occupational pension ie "early retiree" you do not put on your application form that you are retired You need to put that you are an inactif This is important because it means that you do not have an S1 and therefore will have to make payments to the system based on your previous years tax return In your case they will ask to see proof of income from the UK ie P60 which means that initially you may be paying more for your health care in the first year.
That is why it is important that you submit your French tax return as the certificate of RFDR that you get will determine your liabilty You can get helpful free advice from your local tax office about how to fill in your french tax return
Do not forget that a mutuelle is advisable to top up the state coverage and you will need to extend your private health cover to cover the period between you applying and PUMA coverage being granted I always say to get a years cover to allow for problems and hold ups If you need to see a doctor before you get your cover and after you have applied keep any receipts for payment as you will be able top claim it back I take it you are aware that the French system is pay up front for many health professionals
Have you followed the advice on the Ameli website on how to apply Theoretically you are doing the right thing but practically it does not always work out like it says on the tin Hope it helps come back if you have any further queries
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Old Jan 4th 2021, 4:30 pm
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Default Re: CPAM and PUMa

Originally Posted by Listen Very Carefully View Post
Firstly you have not been in France for 3 months so you cannot apply to join the French health system unless you are working or have an S1 so that is why you were asked to provide your copy of the S1 even though you do not have one as you jumped the gun and the system assumed that you were a retired person with a state pension
Which brings the next point If you are not getting a state pension but are getting say a private or occupational pension ie "early retiree" you do not put on your application form that you are retired You need to put that you are an inactif This is important because it means that you do not have an S1 and therefore will have to make payments to the system based on your previous years tax return In your case they will ask to see proof of income from the UK ie P60 which means that initially you may be paying more for your health care in the first year.
That is why it is important that you submit your French tax return as the certificate of RFDR that you get will determine your liabilty You can get helpful free advice from your local tax office about how to fill in your french tax return
Do not forget that a mutuelle is advisable to top up the state coverage and you will need to extend your private health cover to cover the period between you applying and PUMA coverage being granted I always say to get a years cover to allow for problems and hold ups If you need to see a doctor before you get your cover and after you have applied keep any receipts for payment as you will be able top claim it back I take it you are aware that the French system is pay up front for many health professionals
Have you followed the advice on the Ameli website on how to apply Theoretically you are doing the right thing but practically it does not always work out like it says on the tin Hope it helps come back if you have any further queries
Good point, no one gets into the System the day they apply, and the OP's private healthcare must be extended. A year's cover sounds reasonable, esp. after the year-of-the-Covid.
@zoys - the "inactive" status is important when applying, and, no, your UK rental income doesn't come under the category of a French gîte or BnB as far as S.S. is concerned. On the other hand, you must declare this income in the Spring when you make your first Tax Declaration, as all world-wide income must be declared, even if you pay tax on it in the UK. (Presuming the Tax Treaty between France and the UK will continue after Brexit?)
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Old Jan 4th 2021, 4:42 pm
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Default Re: CPAM and PUMa

Originally Posted by zoys View Post
  • I have also got an EHIC card, and according to the UK government website, I can use it as long as I stay in France before it is expiry date.
I think you may have misunderstood this.
EHIC are for use outside your country of residence.
The UK is responsible for the healthcare of UK residents. I believe that under the new EU-UK "deal", UK residents can continue to use their UK-issued EHIC cards when they visit EU countries, until the expiry date on the card.
But you live in France, you are no longer a UK resident and from what you have said there seems to be no reason why the UK should continue paying for your healthcare. If there was a reason, such as you being a UK state pensioner, it would give you an S1.
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Old Jan 4th 2021, 4:47 pm
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Default Re: CPAM and PUMa

@Listen Very Carefully
Thank you very much! It makes sense now why they still ask for S1 form, though I did put economic inactive in the application form.
I will be in France for 3 month in late January, should I make a refresh application on CPAM or PUMa? Or follow up on this one?

I am filing the UK tax return which covers up to 5th April 2020. As I understand the French tax year is per calendar year, do I declare my rental income from January 2020 to December 2020? Or declare the income tax is paid in the UK for the income between January 2020 to March 2020?

By the way, I think the tax treaty will continue as this is not part of the EU membership.

In terms of order of events, is it the following:
  1. Filing French tax return on all income in year 2020
  2. Apply for CPAM or PUMa
  3. Apply for CdS
Or CPAM or PUMa could be an alternative for a private health insurance when apply for CdS?

Many thanks
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Old Jan 4th 2021, 4:53 pm
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Default Re: CPAM and PUMa

Originally Posted by EuroTrash View Post
I think you may have misunderstood this.
EHIC are for use outside your country of residence.
The UK is responsible for the healthcare of UK residents. I believe that under the new EU-UK "deal", UK residents can continue to use their UK-issued EHIC cards when they visit EU countries, until the expiry date on the card.
But you live in France, you are no longer a UK resident and from what you have said there seems to be no reason why the UK should continue paying for your healthcare. If there was a reason, such as you being a UK state pensioner, it would give you an S1.
On this point you are right. EHIC card offers temporary stay in the EU.

While at this moment of time, I have not been in France for 3 months, and it seems to me 3 months is the maximum time to categories as "temporary stay", my understanding is it is till valid for me for now. When that time as passed, EHIC won't be valid for me.
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Old Jan 4th 2021, 5:10 pm
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Default Re: CPAM and PUMa

Originally Posted by zoys View Post
@Listen Very Carefully
Thank you very much! It makes sense now why they still ask for S1 form, though I did put economic inactive in the application form.
I will be in France for 3 month in late January, should I make a refresh application on CPAM or PUMa? Or follow up on this one?

I am filing the UK tax return which covers up to 5th April 2020. As I understand the French tax year is per calendar year, do I declare my rental income from January 2020 to December 2020? Or declare the income tax is paid in the UK for the income between January 2020 to March 2020?

By the way, I think the tax treaty will continue as this is not part of the EU membership.

In terms of order of events, is it the following:
  1. Filing French tax return on all income in year 2020
  2. Apply for CPAM or PUMa
  3. Apply for CdS
Or CPAM or PUMa could be an alternative for a private health insurance when apply for CdS?

Many thanks
You can't fill your French income declaration for 2020 in, until April/May 2021. You should probably get on with PUMA and CdS applications before then.
Technically you should probably declare your income between the date you arrived in France and 31st December. You don't declare income earned while you were still living in the UK. France considers you tax resident from the date you arrived, not before.
The UK makes things very difficult when you leave or arrive during a tax year. There are situations when the tax year can be split, and situations where it can't and you are considered tax resident for the entire year even if you weren't. If you fill in self assessment in the UK you may need to talk it through with HMRC.
I moved back to the UK mid-tax year and it fried my brain trying to understand the rules. I muddled through it in the end but I couldn't even begin to explain it. You will find the rules on their website, good luck with understanding them.
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Old Jan 4th 2021, 5:30 pm
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Default Re: CPAM and PUMa

@EuroTrash thank you. I will certainly check the tax return filing.

That is why it is important that you submit your French tax return as the certificate of RFDR that you get will determine your liabilty You can get helpful free advice from your local tax office about how to fill in your french tax return
You can't fill your French income declaration for 2020 in, until April/May 2021. You should probably get on with PUMA and CdS applications before then.
I am still a bit confused regarding the CPAM and PUMa application.

I understand I can only apply for CPAM or PUMa after 3 months I am in France - that would be late January. But how do proof my personal income in the application if I could not filing tax until April/May 2021?

https://www.ameli.fr/deux-sevres/ass...ladie#text_210

This links suggests to provide l'avis d'impot or l'avis de situation declarative a l'impot, does UK P45 or P60 fall into this category?

I guess this back to my other question, can private health insurance be an alternative evidence for CdS application?

Last edited by zoys; Jan 4th 2021 at 5:49 pm.
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Old Jan 4th 2021, 6:27 pm
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Default Re: CPAM and PUMa

Well presumably you have some kind of financial records? If you use a rental agency they must provide documentation, oltherwise a copy of your ental contracts with your tenants, bank statements? How would you prove your income to HMRC?
After you've submitted your declaration you won't get your tax statement/avis until July at the earliest, so you can't wait for that. AFAIK the form that you submit to the fisc is never accepted as evidence, it has to be the avis you receive back from the fisc.
I thought a P45 and a P60 were to do with working as an employee, not sure how that applies to being a landlord.

Yes, private health insurance is fine as long as it is comprehensive enough.
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