cuthbert

Does anyone happen to know where I can find the rules on corporal punishment or how teachers are allowed to physically interact with kids at school.

dennerlymum

cant help but why do you want to know??

cuthbert

Long story but just involves head master using too much physical force in my mind, and before I return the favour I'd like to know the rules.

dmu

Hi, if it's your child who is involved, you could ask the elected Parents d'Elèves what to do. Other parents may have the same complaint and, if it's against the rules/law, the PTA can act.

Lorna at Vicenza

You could perhaps quote article 19 of the rights of children at him.



Article 19 - Every child must be protected from all forms of violence, abuse, neglect and bad treatment.

tinkydinky

Hi There,

It sounds a difficult situation there, I hope your child isn't getting badly treated. Surely a Head Master gained that position for a reason, is it that severe? I honestly believe if UK schools went back to and were given the freedom to execute the methods of control we experienced as Kids, the youth wouldn't be what we have today. We were given a good Cane if bad or a ruler across the knuckles. When very young, we were locked in a dark cupboard alone for what seemed eternity, we soon learned to be good.

If teachers were able to discipline, we would not have the severely bad youth culture the UK is currently suffering. I only say this as I have very good Teacher friends who are fantastic people but due to pupils aggression and nastiness combined with the knowledge they know they will get away with it. Pupils are abusing their teachers, good teachers lives are being ruined daily. Some to the point of mental breakdown and worse, there are some nasty Kids out there. I lost a friend at school due to him taking his own life, jumping off a train. This due to Bullying

Most teachers get in to the profession because they love it, it is a sad state of affairs that some fear their own job and leave because tables and chairs are launched at them daily or the mental cruelty or abuse is rife. Discipline at home is another thing again, parents feel trapped too, the penal system tied too, kids up to the age of 16 literally getting away with Murder now days.

National service in both France and the UK used to be common place, not a bad thing. To be honest, I am not picking on your child, as they may be a super Kid in all respects but in my time over here, the French kids in no way reflect the UK youth.

The French are doing something right in my book. I still am hearing of parents getting their kids out of the UK, moving here due to these factors. The government in Blighty need to address some sever issues in the schooling system, a lot of it is their fault, cutting back on youth services. Kids feel trapped with no prospects now days, college and university mean life long debt for some. I feel for the youth I really do, they need help, Schools need help, parents need help. The UK is one messed up place right now and the recent riots I fear are just the tip of the IceBerg.

Please excuse my rant and I really do feel for your child. I have no idea what powers the French teachers have in the school's but hope for the teachers sake they have more powers than in the UK. When you know of lovely people being abused by their own students resulting in severe depression and ruined lives, there is something sadly wrong in UK schools.

I hope you find a solution to your problem.

TD

cuthbert

I feel for your friends situation and can understand the lack of support they feel they receive from parents who are not willing to enforce discipline on their child.

This is slightly different issue as my son has had to move from maternelle to a joint class with the 6 year olds due to a lack of resources I believe, so though the lad is only just 5 I believe the head is trying to treat them equally. After two days and seeing the head physically dragging my son into the class, I have seen a significant change in my sons character. Also I have never had any problems with other adults disciplining my child, if he's playing silly buggers and gets caught he deserves it and he is well aware that he can't use me as a shield.

All through the summer holidays he's been at camp with strangers, he's not the clingy apron strings type always used to want to be the one to run first through the school gates as he had to be in class first, and after two days he doesn't want to go to school. Unfortunately it seems a lot of the parents are up in arms over issues and he certainly has problems communicating with the parents trying to talk to them in the same manner as he would the students.

Having my lad come running out of the class tears streaming down his face screaming daddy, daddy, daddy to see him man handled back into the class by the head, was pretty hard as I would never be seen to knock the head in front of the kids. I had words with him and he tried to explain his reasoning, but it wasn't justified by a country mile. To be honest I felt pretty impotent, the dad in me wanted to batter seven bells out of him, but there is no way I can undermine my kids respect for authority and adults, so as I dad I want to protect my boy and I also have to do right by him with respect to society, so pretty impotent is how I feel right now.

tinkydinky

I really do feel for you Cuthbert, it must be so difficult for you. The situation sheds a completely different light Thank you for sharing a bit more of an insight into the situation. It must a very painful for your to witness, it can hurt seeing a loved one upset.

You sound like a great Dad, this may be a reason why you choose to school you child here for the benefits France has to offer. To experience what you are can't be fun. Keep us posted on developments as it would be nice to see a good result and your Boy back on T.

School can be a rotten time for some, sometimes the bad times make us stronger. I suffered a lot when very young as was a quiet kid, bullies zero in on that, a result of a parental break up, in fact I was almost killed by two bullies. A completely different tangent to your story mind you.

Sorry for bringing up my own views on Schooling but reading a part of your post here, hearing you want to take anger out in a violent way kinda brought back some sadder memories. It is re assuring to hear your over view

I wish you good luck in finding answers and pray a nice outcome is met. It must be difficult for the school having to adapt to dramatic changes, as you know unstable schooling can have disastrous affects in learning. Children are much more susceptible

TD

dmu

Hi, I can't find any official rules, but Wikipedia states that "châtiments corporels" in schools are prohibited in France. "Sanctions" are employed as punishments.
It's a great pity that there's a serious problem here, because your son could benefit greatly from being with the CPs. He'd learn to read and write much more quickly than those who "go up" from a separate Grande Maternelle class.
On a personal note, can you tell us why your son didn't want to go into this particular class? (unpopular teacher? known bullies?...). It was his refusal that led to the Directeur (wrongly) acting like he did and whatever happens in that respect, the original problem will still have to be addressed....
As mentioned above, I'd contact one of the present Parents d'Elèves of your school (their names should be displayed if you don't know them personally),
a) to report the directeur's behaviour, and b) to find out whether he treats other pupils like that. They will be able to advise.
Hope this helps, and when you want to reply in kind, remember that striking a French Fonctionnaire is lèse-majesté, however much it's provoked.

cuthbert

Thanks for all the info dmu and guys.

Well it's always been clear that M. Le Directeur has had a few communication problems, my wife and I have made sure that any of our personal thoughts about him, have never been voiced in front of our lad.

Last Thursday we dropped him off at school, bit of a catastrophe no name tags on pegs for his half of the MS who have had to join the CP, wasn't sure which class room etc, nothing out of the ordinary first day of school teething problems in my book, nowt special.

Friday I take him in, my wife was going to pick him up at lunch time (as the canteen had to be closed, due to a death in the family of one of the ladies) and they were going out with mother in law who'd just arrived. I informed the head, and said we'd also written a note in his school book, to which he abruptly replied "what justification?" which isn't necessary for MS, but I explained the out law was visiting etc. One of the other parents saw his reaction pulled me to the side and said he had a similar reaction when said his kid wasn't going to be there and was sarcastically told, well I have to work until Saturday, you can do what you like.
Anyway lad puts his slippers on then gives me a weepy cuddle about not going to class, which he's never done since he started school at 3, I gave him his book told him to give it to the maitre gave him a pat and saw him to the class and said Nana would be there to pick him up at 11:30.

I walked away started speaking to one of the mums about him not wanting to go to school as a few had noted how bizarre it was, to hear a panicked/crying "Daddy, Daddy daddy" as my lad came running to me with the book followed by his name being called very aggressively to make all the other parents jump, to then see the directeur grab my lad by the upper arm almost lifting him off his feet and dragging him into the class.

I asked the directeur what did he do to deserve that, to which he replied I told him I didn't need the book. I then told him, it was me who told him to give you the book as I'd already said there was a note to explain the afternoons absence and you have punished/scared him for something I told him to do. He then said the previous day he'd been disciplined for running to his mother at the end of the day, to which I replied I wasn't aware of that and let it go, but as he'd told Jacob to take the book back, I presume my lad misunderstood and though he was told to take it to me. Christ I've never put a hand on my kid, and can reduce him to tears by telling him off I've seen him upset, that was pure panic I heard.

Now I'm fully cognisant of the fact that my feelings to the directeur may cloud the issue, but prior to that morning I have never had any real interaction with him though had been made aware of a number of horror stories about this person from other parents. Both my wife and I feel strongly that we cannot be seen to undermine the authority of his education, but I worry that after two days of having the lad in his class he can feel free to pick him up and drag him around what else is he capable of?

cuthbert

On a side note anyone know if it is illegal to record a conversation without making the other party aware?

dmu

Hi, I hadn't realised that he was both Directeur and your son's class teacher, which makes the situation even worse.
I think I'd be inclined to visit your Mairie to see whether you're obliged to stay in this school. If there's a possibility of choosing another Maternelle in your Commune, I'd consider doing so, so that your son can do GS in peace. If it's the Directeur doing the CP class, your son's stuck with him for the next two years...
P.S. I'm pretty sure that it's illegal for anyone to record conversations without the other person's knowledge and assent.

dennerlymum

Gosh what a difficult situation; not at all good in my opinion to have a joint GS/ CP class. As a former teacher many children struggle occasionally to settle into a class; how it is handled os crucial to the rest of the year. this head is not doing well. To punish a child for running to his Mum when he is just 5 is ludicrous... even if that's the rule little ones take time and you need to be understanding!
As for corporal punishment such a locking in a cupboard/ hitting I have never ever needed to physically hurt a child in my class; even in a very poor rough area with very challenging pupils (a raised voice yes!) Generally I found it enough to calmly state that it was a shame they did x cos now they would be getting less playtime/ no gold stars etc... little children usually want to please!

I do hope you get this settled Cuthbert; could he not move to a different class or is the school too small?

Perhaps as DMU said a talk with the conseil de classe or if necessary go higher to the local rectorat?

Good luck

Ka Ora!

I think you will find you cant, But I cant be definitive. France likes it`s privacy laws.

dmu

Hi, our village Maternelle/Primaire (average 100 pupils) has always had four classrooms and four teachers, one for the three Maternelle years (with an assistant), one for CP, one for CE1 and CE2, and one for CM1 and CM2. The joint classes work very well, and it has been known for a bright GS Maternelle pupil to move early to CP due to the varying numbers in the classes.
I would only contact the Rectorat as a last resort if the Class representatives can't find a solution. I wish the OP all the best - I can't imagine how such a person can have passed all the child-psychology exams. to become a Directeur...

P.S. Just spoken to my OH who says that recording conversations without the other person's knowledge isn't exactly illegal as such, but there's no point in doing so, since the recording can't be used in a French Court or before any Authority, as it's impossible to prove that it's genuine. (Police interrogations go through a special procedure...). Unless one wanted to blackmail the other party, any secret recording would lead nowhere...