Compromis de Vente..translation
 

Hi

Does anyone know of someone in the Lot et Garonne or Dordogne departments who could translate/ interpret a compromis de vente?

We are buying a house in the Lot et Garonne, have simple affairs (married, three joint children) and had thought that the 'tontine' type of contract was appropriate. The notaire has said we need a 'communate' contract. Has anyone any experience of these types of contract?

Re: Compromis de Vente..translation
 

Hi, do you mean "communauté"? In the sense of what type of marriage contract you made? Someone in the know will come along to advise how to get round that for a couple not married in France.
Did the Notaire suggest a Tontine clause, nominating you the parents, or you the parents and your three children? If the former, then the surviving spouse would inherit all, and the property would go to the three children at his/her death. No point in making a Tontine contract since French Law states this anyway. And IMO the latter would be unfair - any grandchildren will lose out on the inheritance until your youngest child has died (and even then I'm not sure what happens to the elder cousins if the deceased siblings themselves had children....)
I stand to be corrected, but a Tontine contract is only useful for joint-owners who aren't related and have no children of their own...

Re: Compromis de Vente..translation
 

Clause Tontine applies only to the property.
A "communauté de biens" is a declared marriage contract that is stated in the Acte de Vente i.e. the Deeds for the property and the couple have joint ownership of all their possessions. In the case of the first death, the property is then owned by the remaining spouse.
I will give you a link in English later - short of time at the mo.

Re: Compromis de Vente..translation
 

Do you have children? and had you clearly explained to the Notaire what the outcome you are trying to achieve is with inheritance rights.

The two posts above sum it up......

Re: Compromis de Vente..translation
 

Thanks all. Yes, I think communauté is the correct spelling.
The question of a tontine came up in conversation with other ex-pats, who had suggested it. From what you are saying it is not appropriate for us, which is reassuring as that was also the notaires advice. We have been sent a compromis de vente in advance to review which I am working through with the help of a dictionary and google translate. It is I think based on the communauté de biens marriage contract.

Re: Compromis de Vente..translation
 

Yes, three children. At our next meeting with the notaire we will review the implications for our three children at the time of our deaths, including the possibility of simultaneous demise, just to be thorough!

Re: Compromis de Vente..translation
 

As said, there doesn't seem to be any reason for tontine in your case. Tontine is only used when there are complications with the inheritance, usually where there are offspring who are not blood relatives of one of the partners, and even then there are better ways to deal with that situation these days. Why do you think you need a tontine arrangement?

Since your situation seems to be uncomplicated I would take your notaire's advice. Notaires are experts on these matters, it's what they do, and a notaire in the Dordogneshire is also going to know what arrangement Brits tend to favour. Communauté des biens sounds suitable. But whatever contract you use, there is no inheritance tax between spouses and each child will get the same tax-free allowance from each parent at the time of succession, so I don't see any need for fancy footwork; unless it's a very high value property there shouldn't be any tax to pay anywhere.

A translation of the entire compromis will be quite expensive, translators usually charge anywhere from 0,06€/word and 0,12€/word. Bringing an interpreter to the signing might be money better spent as you can then ask the notaire any questions you wish to ask (and understand the responses).

Re: Compromis de Vente..translation
 

Thanks again...the tontine suggestion came from an expat friend, with much more complex inheritance issues, i don't think we will consider it any further now.

Re: Compromis de Vente..translation
 

Good decision!
As for translating the Compromis, how many pages are there? And have you come across incomprehensible terms with Google translation? We could help with the odd expression in quirky French on here, but a full translation by a competent legal translator would involve a bill which, as ET says, might be the same as paying an interpreter for a couple of hours at the Notaire's.
Apparently no one on the forum in your area is offering their services and you'd best look in the Pages Jaunes for a traducteur/interprète (no need for a traducteur "assermenté").

Re: Compromis de Vente..translation
 

OK - back again.
Have a browse through this website in English.
It is helpful for many different legal things in France:
https://www.notaires.fr/en

France has 2 types of marriage contracts and they basically don't recognise UK marriages because they don't obviously fall into either french category.
Communauté de biens is what we recognise as a UK marriage i.e. all possessions are jointly owned.
Separation de biens means that he keeps what he brings to the marriage and she keeps what she brings. (With apologies to same-sex partners ;) )
Your notaire will declare a change of marriage contract which you will both sign and it will be posted in a Prefecture in the local large town for 3 months and this marriage contract will form part of the purchase document.
It is the notaires responsibility to go through the various purchase documents with you - page-by-page and to make sure that you understand everything in the document.
If your french isn't up to it, take a friend or pay a fluent french/English speaker to help.

Good luck

Re: Compromis de Vente..translation
 

Hi,
You can get married in France without a Marriage Contract (which is what we did) - it's called "Régime de la Communauté réduite aux acquêts" which is basically like the "Séparation de Biens", but what either spouse acquires after the date of marriage is jointly owned.
As mentioned, the matrimonial "Régime" is clearly mentioned in the official Deeds.
Very interesting to learn how couples married in the UK manage to get "legally" married in France! :)

Re: Compromis de Vente..translation
 

Thanks for that.
I didn't know that.
The French "wedding" was a lot cheaper than the UK one - just €300 :rofl:

Re: Compromis de Vente..translation
 

From my own experience an English marriage is considered by the French courts to be under the regime "separation de biens".

Re: Compromis de Vente..translation
 

Our notaire described us as "Mr & Mrs Cyrian were married in the UK without a contract of marriage.
Many notaires are unsure how they should treat foreigners who don't fit neatly into the french system.
If you declare a contract of marriage then the doubt is removed but I agree that there are several options - to each his own.

Re: Compromis de Vente..translation
 

Hi, just to clarify re "séparation de biens":
Problems may arise at the death of one spouse, as his/her share of the jointly owned property will go to his/her "personal" heirs, likewise the surviving spouse's heirs will inherit his/her share when the time comes. This leads to a complicated multi-owner situation to cope with, if, for example, some heirs don't agree to sell.
This can be solved in advance by the couple making a Will, specifically leaving one spouse's share of the property to the surviving spouse.
You'll have done this, I'm only mentioning it for newcomers who are confused by the various matrimonial régimes which complicate Property and Inheritance Laws even further...
But in any case the Notaire will explain all.