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Compromis de Vente..translation

Compromis de Vente..translation

Old Nov 4th 2016, 2:16 pm
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Default Re: Compromis de Vente..translation

Thanks again to all who are helping. I am working through the 30 page compromis de vente with the help of google and a dictionary and my modicum of french. The notaire has reasonable English and has promised to go through the document slowly and explain it fully, on the day of signing. The vendors are English, which helps. The marriage contract mentioned in the preamble is indeed a 'séparation de biens' . As I understand it, this is fine for us, and there are no step children to stake a claim on the first death. We will update our English wills to include the French house and make French wills, in addition, on the advice of the notaire.
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Old Nov 4th 2016, 3:03 pm
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Default Re: Compromis de Vente..translation

Originally Posted by Peter219
Thanks again to all who are helping. I am working through the 30 page compromis de vente with the help of google and a dictionary and my modicum of french. The notaire has reasonable English and has promised to go through the document slowly and explain it fully, on the day of signing. The vendors are English, which helps. The marriage contract mentioned in the preamble is indeed a 'séparation de biens' . As I understand it, this is fine for us, and there are no step children to stake a claim on the first death. We will update our English wills to include the French house and make French wills, in addition, on the advice of the notaire.
OK If you choose "séparation de biens" then you have to check out french inheritance law and tax. As has been said in #15, your children would inherit all or part of your share of the property and french inheritance tax would need to be paid - whether they could afford it or not.
If you choose "communauté de biens" then french inheritance doesn't apply until the 2nd death.
Check the Notaires de France website.
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Old Nov 4th 2016, 3:08 pm
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Default Re: Compromis de Vente..translation

Originally Posted by Peter219
Thanks again to all who are helping. I am working through the 30 page compromis de vente with the help of google and a dictionary and my modicum of french. The notaire has reasonable English and has promised to go through the document slowly and explain it fully, on the day of signing. The vendors are English, which helps. The marriage contract mentioned in the preamble is indeed a 'séparation de biens' . As I understand it, this is fine for us, and there are no step children to stake a claim on the first death. We will update our English wills to include the French house and make French wills, in addition, on the advice of the notaire.
Good luck with initialling all those pages, you'll have writer's cramp by the time you sign the last page!
Check with the Notaire that there aren't any existing "Servitudes" which might not be mentioned in the Compromis, e.g. rights of way over your future land, access to the property via some one's private road, etc...
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Old Nov 4th 2016, 3:35 pm
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Default Re: Compromis de Vente..translation

Originally Posted by Peter219
Hi

Does anyone know of someone in the Lot et Garonne or Dordogne departments who could translate/ interpret a compromis de vente?

We are buying a house in the Lot et Garonne, have simple affairs (married, three joint children) and had thought that the 'tontine' type of contract was appropriate. The notaire has said we need a 'communate' contract. Has anyone any experience of these types of contract?
Hi,
My late husband and I got married in the Netherlands with a contract where whatever was his stays his and whatever was mine stays mine. Whatever we bought after the marriage was jointly owned. It was recognized in France, just needed an official translation.
Guy had 2 sons (living in London) and I don't have children.
We bought a house in France ''en tontine'', to protect my rights if something happens to Guy.
This meant, when Guy passed away, the house in its whole came to me. The children do NOT have any claim on it. En tontine basically means the the other partner gets the house (not inherits but gets) as if the other partner did not exist.
I did not have to pay inheritance tax since I did not inherit it. I just had to change de deeds of the house in my name.

Must admit that this is not very nice to the children, but it did protect me.

Also have to say, I immediatly made a French will where my half will go to my family and Guy's half will go to his sons.
The downfall being that, since they are not related to me, they will have to pay a lot of inheritance tax.

Hope this clears up the ''en tontine'' issue, and helps you deciding if you need it or not.


Hey, is there no spell check any more here ??? OUPSSS hope I didn't make to many mistakes then.
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Old Nov 4th 2016, 3:39 pm
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Default Re: Compromis de Vente..translation

Originally Posted by cyrian
OK If you choose "séparation de biens" then you have to check out french inheritance law and tax. As has been said in #15, your children would inherit all or part of your share of the property and french inheritance tax would need to be paid - whether they could afford it or not.
If you choose "communauté de biens" then french inheritance doesn't apply until the 2nd death.
Check the Notaires de France website.
Thanks for heads up. I have checked the website. However this doesn't go in to great depth on the implications of the séparation vs. communauté marriage contracts. When we spoke to the notaire about this on our first meeting, he did say communauté was appropriate (I understood the options even less at the time) , and I think now that he just may not have transferred this advice to the contract which he has sent us....we will certainly check this with him.
The downside to the communauté is apparently that the total pool of our assets would be liable for any of the spouses’ present and future debts.
The notaires france website has not been perfectly translated and there is also ambiguity as whether 'communauté universelle' is a third possible marriage contract option?
My translation of the French has not been helped by my not being able to understand some of the English translations! Privity for example. Usufruct is another example, luckily explained on the notaire's site.
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Old Nov 4th 2016, 3:42 pm
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Default Re: Compromis de Vente..translation

Originally Posted by cyrian
OK If you choose "séparation de biens" then you have to check out french inheritance law and tax. As has been said in #15, your children would inherit all or part of your share of the property and french inheritance tax would need to be paid - whether they could afford it or not.
If you choose "communauté de biens" then french inheritance doesn't apply until the 2nd death.
Check the Notaires de France website.
I don't see why there should be any inheritance tax issues?
Regardless of the parents' marriage regime, each child will have a 100 000€ tax free allowance from each parent, ie 100k each when they inherit from Mum and another 100k each when they inherit from Dad.
Mr and Mrs OP have 3 children, so between them the 3 kids can inherit up to 600 000€ before any inheritance tax is payable.
How much are Mr & Mrs OP paying for this holiday home
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Old Nov 4th 2016, 4:08 pm
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Default Re: Compromis de Vente..translation

Originally Posted by cyrian
OK If you choose "séparation de biens" then you have to check out french inheritance law and tax. As has been said in #15, your children would inherit all or part of your share of the property and french inheritance tax would need to be paid - whether they could afford it or not.
If you choose "communauté de biens" then french inheritance doesn't apply until the 2nd death.
Check the Notaires de France website.
You can't choose at the point of purchasing a house which type of marriage you have! If you got married in the UK then you are considered by the French to have married under the "separation de biens" regime and that is what will be shown in the compromis. You can choose to put the property in tontine but this must be done at the moment of purchase.
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Old Nov 4th 2016, 4:10 pm
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Default Re: Compromis de Vente..translation

Originally Posted by EuroTrash
I don't see why there should be any inheritance tax issues?
Regardless of the parents' marriage regime, each child will have a 100 000€ tax free allowance from each parent, ie 100k each when they inherit from Mum and another 100k each when they inherit from Dad.
Mr and Mrs OP have 3 children, so between them the 3 kids can inherit up to 600 000€ before any inheritance tax is payable.
How much are Mr & Mrs OP paying for this holiday home
Thanks ET. It's not a holiday home, we sold our English house, and it is costing a bit over 300k , tho' nowhere near 600k. It is an important point because, as I understand it, inheritance allowance for the children can be bought forward to the second spouse if not used on the first death in the UK. But I do not think this applies in France, so there would be inheritance tax payable by the children in France on the death of the second of us, should the property then be worth over 300k.
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Old Nov 4th 2016, 4:32 pm
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Default Re: Compromis de Vente..translation

Originally Posted by InVinoVeritas
You can't choose at the point of purchasing a house which type of marriage you have! If you got married in the UK then you are considered by the French to have married under the "separation de biens" regime and that is what will be shown in the compromis. You can choose to put the property in tontine but this must be done at the moment of purchase.
Sorry - That was exactly what we did it one day before signing the Acte de Vente. We declared a change of marriage regime which was duly notarised and registered and that was what was recorded in the Acte de Vente.
https://www.service-public.fr/partic...osdroits/F1535

It was not necessary to go before a judge.
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Old Nov 4th 2016, 4:32 pm
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Default Re: Compromis de Vente..translation

Sorry, mea culpa, I didn't reread the entire thread and I thought I remembered it was a holiday home.

I thought inheritance was a different kettle of fish altogether in the UK because it's the estate that's taxed before it's distributed, isn't it? not each individual legacy.

I also thought, as DMU said, that under the séparation des biens, when the first partner dies, that partner's estate normally passes to the children not to the spouse. But I may be confused again and probably am, it is a very complex subject. I guess depends too on how close the family is and how much you all trust each other - would there be fallings-out over the legal ownership, would the kids be liable want to kick a parent out of their house, or would they be content to own half the property on paper but let the surviving spouse continue living in it, or does the surviving spouse need to be protected. Get the notaire to explain it to you!
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Old Nov 4th 2016, 4:41 pm
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Default Re: Compromis de Vente..translation

Originally Posted by EuroTrash
Sorry, mea culpa, I didn't reread the entire thread and I thought I remembered it was a holiday home.

I thought inheritance was a different kettle of fish altogether in the UK because it's the estate that's taxed before it's distributed, isn't it? not each individual legacy.

I also thought, as DMU said, that under the séparation des biens, when the first partner dies, that partner's estate normally passes to the children not to the spouse. But I may be confused again and probably am, it is a very complex subject. I guess depends too on how close the family is and how much you all trust each other - would there be fallings-out over the legal ownership, would the kids be liable want to kick a parent out of their house, or would they be content to own half the property on paper but let the surviving spouse continue living in it, or does the surviving spouse need to be protected. Get the notaire to explain it to you!
In France, you cannot dis-inherit a child including illegitimate children.
For 3 children and a remaining spouse, the estate is normally divided in 4 with the house becoming the property of the children (jointly). The surviving spouse (wife - not sure how it applied to husband) is given usufruit (lifetime right to remain in the property).
The wife cannot sell the property without the unanimous agreement of all 3 children.
I don't know what happens if the wife needs to move to a more suitable home.
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Old Nov 4th 2016, 5:36 pm
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Default Re: Compromis de Vente..translation

Originally Posted by EuroTrash
Sorry, mea culpa, I didn't reread the entire thread and I thought I remembered it was a holiday home.

I thought inheritance was a different kettle of fish altogether in the UK because it's the estate that's taxed before it's distributed, isn't it? not each individual legacy.

I also thought, as DMU said, that under the séparation des biens, when the first partner dies, that partner's estate normally passes to the children not to the spouse. But I may be confused again and probably am, it is a very complex subject. I guess depends too on how close the family is and how much you all trust each other - would there be fallings-out over the legal ownership, would the kids be liable want to kick a parent out of their house, or would they be content to own half the property on paper but let the surviving spouse continue living in it, or does the surviving spouse need to be protected. Get the notaire to explain it to you!
Now I'm confused!
In "séparation de biens", the deceased husband's share of the property goes to his children (whoever the mother is). The surviving wife still owns her share and can't be thrown out. When she dies, her share goes to her children (the same as the husband's children in the OP's case, but not so in recomposed families, hence the complications mentioned). I'll check with OH, but I assume that the same applies if the wife dies first.
As you say, the Notaire will explain everything and draw up Wills to protect every one's interests!
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Old Nov 4th 2016, 6:42 pm
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Default Re: Compromis de Vente..translation

Originally Posted by InVinoVeritas
You can't choose at the point of purchasing a house which type of marriage you have! If you got married in the UK then you are considered by the French to have married under the "separation de biens" regime and that is what will be shown in the compromis. You can choose to put the property in tontine but this must be done at the moment of purchase.
It may differ between notaires.
Ours emailed straight back after I had queried the type of marriage contract to be entered in the compromis and said he could enter it as communauté rather than séparation de biens, and he would discuss further at our next meeting.
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Old Nov 4th 2016, 9:16 pm
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Default Re: Compromis de Vente..translation

Originally Posted by Peter219
It may differ between notaires.
Ours emailed straight back after I had queried the type of marriage contract to be entered in the compromis and said he could enter it as communauté rather than séparation de biens, and he would discuss further at our next meeting.
We were married in Wales but our first home was in Scotland. Therefore our marital regime as determined by EU law was under the scottish law and was therefore communaute de biens. Scottish law is rather more similar to French law in this respect. If you were married in England or Wales and your first marital home was also there, then your marital regime will be different. Or maybe the other way round!!!
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Old Nov 5th 2016, 7:13 am
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Default Re: Compromis de Vente..translation

Originally Posted by cyrian
Sorry - That was exactly what we did it one day before signing the Acte de Vente. We declared a change of marriage regime which was duly notarised and registered and that was what was recorded in the Acte de Vente.
https://www.service-public.fr/partic...osdroits/F1535

It was not necessary to go before a judge.
My point was that you can't simply change your marriage regime on the Acte de Vente, it has to be done via an Acte Notarié prior to the Acte de Vente (as you, yourself, did).

It should be understood that children over 17 and creditors must be informed beforehand and depending on individual circumstances it may need to be done before a judge.
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