Magukat

We (unmarried couple) are planning to move for good to France in a few years, but in the interim to keep our rights to remain there we are planning to rent and register as tax residents. So that we can as far as possible guarantee our rights as residents
I'm going to reside in France, whilst my partner will have to commute weekly to London. As it's quite tiring, I'm thinking of
1) What could be the best location to rent (Lille, Bordeaux, Nice, Bergerac etc.) so that the climate, quality of living is good? We don't see busy cities like Paris as an option. If anyone has experience commuting, could you please advise
2) Are there any ways of making it easier to prove residency? Does he need to spend more than 6 months a year in France? That s a lot of traveling. Maybe we can buy a car, register a small business etc, that would help to prove to the authorities our serious intentions going forward

Thank you!

EuroTrash

Sorry to go off at a tangent but I really do think you would be making life unnecessarily complicated, especially for your partner. Is commuting from France to London week in week out for years, really an easier option than simply applying for a visa a few years down the line when you are actually ready to move here? There's no reason why obtaining a visa should be difficult, other non EU citizens (US/Australian etc) manage it perfectly easily, it's simply a case of filling in a form, paying the fee and maybe going for an interview. I honestly can't see a single advantage in this approach. Plus, this kind of lifestyle also puts a terrific strain on the relationship, as many married couples in this situation have found. To me it's a sledgehammer to crack a nut, and it might even miss the nut completely.

To your second question, you don't "register as tax residents" as soon as you arrive, there is no mechanism for that. After you've moved here it's your responsibility to submit your first tax form when it's due, and if the authorities accept it then they process it and in due course issue an avis d'imposition ie tax demand, and that's the piece of paper that you use to prove you are tax resident. You submit your tax return in May for the previous calendar year, and the avis are sent out from July onwards. You're not officially classed as a French tax payer until your first tax form has been processed.

As has been said before I think, the three criteria for fiscal residence in France are to spend most of the year here, or to have your family home here, or to have the centre of your economic interests here. It's not immediately obvious how an unmarried partner would meet any one of those criteria. Perhaps it could be engineered, but having your own hidden agenda when it comes to dealing with the tax authorities can make things complicated.

Daygar

Hi

We have just done exactly what your thinking about. We have moved to the sarthe Le Lude as we have had a holiday home there for 10 years. I commute to London (tours to stansted). Happy to discuss further/

Magukat

Thank you. For now we have decided to settle in Lille(after Christmas) as it will make the commute much easier for my partner.
Could you advise on the following:

• Is there anything you regret/would have done differently if knew from the beginning?
• Where are you taxed? (and why)
• Are there any particular arrangements you have with your employer (covering travel expenses, flex hours , working from home part time ... anything else)

Any other useful tips would be much appreciated too.

Thank you!!

Daygar

Hi

See my comments below

Is there anything you regret/would have done differently if knew from the beginning?

• Not sure we would have done anything differently as I was already working away from home and we knew france very well having spent a lot of time there over the last few years.
• That said you have to become "numb" to the commute, airport queues, Flight delays i have been communicating using flights so i know what i have let myself in for but one of the reasons most people come to france is to change the pace of life. Every flight out gets that little bit harder. Everyone I know who commutes weekly has changed there circumstances so they can say in france all the time or have gone back to to the UK. So please don't under estimate how hard it can be week in, week out.
• Get organised and book flights, car parking etc early and dot forget when budgeting that now matter how organised you are you will be hit will inflated ticket prices around UK & France holidays.
• Buy a lounge pass to ease the pain of those inevitable flight delays.

Where are you taxed? (and why)

If as you say your purpose is to maintain / prove you right to remain after Brexit you will need to register with the local import office (tax office) as this is virtually and prerequisite. If you partner is paying tax via PAYE you will not be taxed again in france but you do have to declare world wide income in france and list all bank Accounts you have. I am self employed so although all my income comes from the UK i declare it and pay tax and social changes on it in france. You will need to make arrangements for healthcare as well so take some advice on this.

Are there any particular arrangements you have with your employer (covering travel expenses, flex hours , working from home part time ... anything else)

• Communicate make sure you boss, colleagues and customers know what you are intending to do. Ask you bosses permission to do so although you (dont actually need it ) it makes them feel good and could make it a little easier.
• If you are employed (not self employed ) then you may not get travel expenses and even with cheap flights this we require a tidy little budget to cover it.
• Flex hours are a must, so you can get off early to get that flight and arrive late when delayed. Home working is the panacea so go for this if available or ask for it.
• Dont be surprised if your Boss and colleagues start to treat you differently !!!!!

S

cyrian

Good post.

EuroTrash

Good choice, I lived and worked in Lille for a year and enjoyed my time there very much, mind you that was 40 years ago.

I'm still a little concerned whether you have the residency requirements clear in your mind. Establishing residence isn't simply a matter of showing up at the préfecture and saying "Look here I am". The first thing they will need to know is what your status here is. At the risk of repeating what's been said already, for employed workers there are three possible statuses - resident worker, posted worker and cross-border worker.

Resident worker is the gold standard for establishing residency. Your live and work in France, your employer (French or foreign) declares you to URSSAF as an employee and meets their obligations re French payslips etc, you carry out your work on French soil and pay your tax in France. Your employer and you pay French social security contributions which gives you entitlement to French healthcare and benefits, you're fully in the system and there should be no question over your rights.

Posted worker means you've been sent to work in France on a temporary basis by your employer. Your employer must declare you to URSSAF as a posted worker and must comply with French reporting requirements, but you remain in the UK social security system and continue paying NICs, and in some cases UK tax too. Since by its nature this a temporary arrangement and you're classed as a UK resident posted to another EU state, I suspect this would be a pretty useless status for trying to claim residency rights.

Cross-border worker mean you live in eg France but carry out your work in eg the UK, You continue paying NICs and continue to be covered by the UK social security system. Your employer has no obligations towards URSSAF. If HMRC accepts that you are resident in France, they should issue a workers S1 which will cover your healthcare in France. However, if you spend relatively little time in France from one end of the year to the next, it's possible that HMRC will continue to consider you as UK resident, and will tell you to use your EHIC card rather than issuing you with an S1. In that case, if the UK won't let go of you then trying to claim residency in France would be tricky.

These are the only three possible statuses for workers, so you have to fall into one of these three categories and know which it is. Depending on which category you're in, that decides how your healthcare and social security is taken care of, and your healthcare arrangements are one of the factors that will be looked at when you apply for a carte de séjour. They'll check that your circumstnances tick all the boxes that apply to your status, If not, for instance if you're not registered in the social security system either via paying cotisations or via having a workers S1 registered with CPAM, then as far as French admin is concerned, you're not legal.

Just to pick up on this - yes it is, because it makes you a resident worker. However it also puts a lot of obligations on the employer, see above, both administrative in term of reporting requirements, and financial in terms of paying French cotisations.

You haven't mentioned yourself, but I think you said you are self-employed? If that's the case, one thing to bear in mind is that there are concessions for new businesses in their first calendar year, eg you don't have to pay the business tax called CFE for your first calendar year of trading. If you set up in December, that'll in effect give you a one-month exemption. If you set up in January you will get a full 12 months exemption. Just something to be aware of, though you may decide it's more important to get your business registered and start paying cotisations as soon as possible.

As regards income tax, this should be straightforward because every possible set of circumstances is covered by the tax treaty. The basic rule is that tax is due in the country where your bum is while you do the work, and there are very few exceptions to this.

dmu

Hi, the only advice I can offer is to get married, whatever your partner's employment status will be.
Take a look at the "Partner Status" thread in the Moving to France FAQs above. France isn't "partner"-friendly and, if you're not legally bound, many aspects of French Bureaucracy will treat you as unrelated individuals. For example you would have to comply with the Residency requirements (ressources, healthcare coverage....) independently of your partner. And you'd have to rent as "colocataires", which involves reciprocal obligations but would avoid the risk of one of you becoming homeless in the event of separation or death. The "Renting" thread in the above FAQs gives info.
You haven't indicated your own source of income: will you be receiving a UK State Pension/be salaried in France/job-seeking/working from home/"inactive" with private income? Your social security will depend on your own status.
HTH

EuroTrash

projet de loi habilitant le Gouvernement à prendre par ordonnance les mesures de préparation au retrait du Royaume-Uni de l'Union européenne
sets out in some detail France's proposed arrangements for handling a no-deal situation so as to try and minimise disruption, and could be useful for anyone wanting to check how they might stand with regard to residency/social security etc.
There seems to be 12 months allocated to getting things sorted out, to avoid a cliff edge where major black holes open up literally overnight.

Annetje

Thank you very much for that.
I had a quick read (missing the words I have to look up ) and it seems to me that leaving with ''No deal'' must be a very bad idea if the UK wants all to go as friction free as possible ...
And btw, it's all very expensive for France to rearrange the borders.

Tweedpipe

I've just had a rapid scan through this, and agreeing with Annetje, France is indeed very concerned about the ramifications of a no-deal Brexit, especially getting their own house in order/their own act together re new border control posts, creating many additional veterinary inspection facilities, additional road network changes, and vehicle parking/storage areas to cope with the inevitable extended delays at port terminals for both tourists and heavy vehicles. This being equally true for other member states.
Another thing I didn't know was that even with the necessary French equivalent qualifications, certain professions (doctors, pharmacists and tobacconists) must have the nationality of an EU member state in order to excercise their profession; as promply noted in the text, that condition will surely be opposed by British nationals in the case of a no-deal Brexit.
The other paragraph which especially caught my attention (which most of us are already aware of), is that in the event of a non agreement, the social security coordination rules previously adopted will no longer apply between the UK and other member states.
Bring back Boris Johnson, he'll soon clear up this huge purid quagmire.........
ET, was that 12 months allocated to sorting things out, or 12 years?

EuroTrash

LOL
So many Brits are still missing the point and bleating that the EU has to ring fence citizens' rights in the event of a no deal. No it doesn't, if there is no deal then the EU itself doesn't have to do anything, and won't. The Commission's role in the negotiations would be at a dead end, and thereafter it would be up to each member state to take its own unilateral decisions on what to do. Based on this text I actually think that we Brits in France are fortunate in that France is addressing the issue early, has a good grasp of what's involved, and seems to be taking responsibility and acting in good faith to try and find fair solutions. I don't know whether other countries with high Brit populations, such as Spain, have announced any provisional plans as yet?

Annetje

Sometimes (read always) I'm amazed the UK does not seem to realize they will be a ''Third Country' with all the restrictions that will come with it.

My Brexit friend in the UK always springs to mind. He has a company that basically deals a lot with the EU. When asked whether he didn't see the problems Brexit might give him, he was convinced a ''good deal'' would be on offer. Didn't see them for 2 years now, but I wonder what he thinks now.

All these UK papers and qualifications that will not be valid within the EU.
Loads of youngsters will be even more disappointed with their new found global freedom and blue passports.

Mind you, they give a hell of a lot of problems and costs to the EU.

EuroTrash

Totally agree with all that.
From the government down, nobody seems to be taking on board what Leave Means Leave really means. They remind me of kids when they can't wait to leave home - they see the advantages of having their own place and being free of their parents' house rules, nobody telling them to tidy up after themselves or kicking off if they roll in drunk at 4am, but they tend to be blind to the fact that it also means doing their own washing, putting their own food on the table, managing their own budget etc. The difference is that mum and dad love them. Mum's a softie, so she lets them keep coming home with their dirty laundry and she sends them off again with a full tummy and clean ironed clothes. Dad is a responsible father so he'll help them out with money and advice when they need it. I don't think Messrs Verhofstadt, Juncker et al will be quite so accommodating.

Chatter Static

I say let them have their way if the UK economy crashes it will help returning Brits