Charged social charges on UK rental income
Dec 18th 2019, 6:08 pm
#16
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Re: Charged social charges on UK rental income
I can't offer any specific help, but, the France-UK tax convention is easily found on google so you can read Article 24 in English at your leisure should you feel moved to so do.
Also, failing all else you could approach SOLVIT, the EU organisation that gives free email advice to EU citizens. They do reply, they have EU regs at their fingertips and often they can help.
I haven't re-read this entire thread so I may be repeating or contradicting what's been said earlier, but my understanding is that in theory you are liable to pay social charges, inasmuch as you're not exempt, but in practice social charges can be cancelled out along with income tax when the DTA is applied. Charging you and then cancelling it out, is not the same as not charging you in the first place, if you see what I mean - your argument shouldn't be you shouldn't have been charged it, it should be that having charged in accordance with French rules they should then be refunding it in according with the DTA. That being the case i doesn't seem unreasonable for them to want something to prove that HMRC has in fact had first dibs at taxing it before they will apply the DTA - have you already provided some kind of justificatif?
Also, failing all else you could approach SOLVIT, the EU organisation that gives free email advice to EU citizens. They do reply, they have EU regs at their fingertips and often they can help.
I haven't re-read this entire thread so I may be repeating or contradicting what's been said earlier, but my understanding is that in theory you are liable to pay social charges, inasmuch as you're not exempt, but in practice social charges can be cancelled out along with income tax when the DTA is applied. Charging you and then cancelling it out, is not the same as not charging you in the first place, if you see what I mean - your argument shouldn't be you shouldn't have been charged it, it should be that having charged in accordance with French rules they should then be refunding it in according with the DTA. That being the case i doesn't seem unreasonable for them to want something to prove that HMRC has in fact had first dibs at taxing it before they will apply the DTA - have you already provided some kind of justificatif?
I had a look at art. 24 but don't see anything in there that proves what he says. Now, those things are not my usual language so maybe I'm just not seeing it.
I fully accept I have to pay CSG over my income but, as everyone seems to be saying, that should not apply to rental income UK.
Never knew about Solvit but I'll keep that in mind.
It is quite clear from the Anglo French tax treaty that income from rentals is taxed in the state where the building is situated but you obviously need to declare it in France and you should receive a tax credit It is also clear that no social charges are to be applied on this income so whoever you spoke to has got it wrong You obviously need to go back or write a letter You may need to get professional advice There was a letter circulating a while back from the office of the head of the fisc making it clear that the situation as I have described was correct and that other interpretations are incorrect If you have no joy speaking to a supervisor at the tax office your next stop is the conciliateur
Yes, I do declare it and receive a tax credit for income tax (which he said I should not get either). It was there that I asked him why he needs prove for CSG but not for income tax. There I more or less gave up.
I had a look at the conciliateur for the Var (Toulon) but they do not have a phone number, just a BP. If they had a phone I might have given that a try.
I think I passed the writing stage by now, this has been going on for awhile now and I think I'm slowing sincking out of my dept with this.
I still have an expert in Cannes who sorted out loads of problems after my husband passed away so maybe it's the best to give her a ring.
She doesn't come cheap but the advantages will be far bigger and also, my pride is involved now (sort of : who does he think he is
)I will update this info as it might come handy for anyone with this problem later.
Thanks again !
Dec 18th 2019, 9:39 pm
#17
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Posts: 10
Re: Charged social charges on UK rental income
I would download the pdf document relating to the double taxation treaty (convention double imposition), highlight Article 6, Article 2 (b)(iii) (relating to social charges) and Article 24 (3)(a). Send to tax office, either via your espace client, under the heading "je signale une erreur sur le calcul de mon impôt" or by recorded delivery post, together with a copy of your UK tax return (and any other uk tax docs you may have showing that you have declared the rental income) and a letter claiming a credit impot.
This may also provide some info: https://www.impots.gouv.fr/portail/p...ser-ma-demande
This may also provide some info: https://www.impots.gouv.fr/portail/p...ser-ma-demande
Dec 19th 2019, 6:19 am
#18
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Re: Charged social charges on UK rental income
Dec 19th 2019, 12:38 pm
#19
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Re: Charged social charges on UK rental income
I would download the pdf document relating to the double taxation treaty (convention double imposition), highlight Article 6, Article 2 (b)(iii) (relating to social charges) and Article 24 (3)(a). Send to tax office, either via your espace client, under the heading "je signale une erreur sur le calcul de mon impôt" or by recorded delivery post, together with a copy of your UK tax return (and any other uk tax docs you may have showing that you have declared the rental income) and a letter claiming a credit impot.
This may also provide some info: https://www.impots.gouv.fr/portail/p...ser-ma-demande
This may also provide some info: https://www.impots.gouv.fr/portail/p...ser-ma-demande
I've done exactely what you said (had to read this art 24 at least 5 times before I understood it a bit).
For starters I only mentionned the Avis d'impot 2017 (income 2016).
Maybe it is better to wait and see for the other 2 years (2018 and 2019) ? Having said that, I did sent them a message on the 6th of Dec concerning 2019, got a receipt of that but no answer yet. That one I didn't do as formal as this one ...
So the only one I did not mention to them yet is last years but, like I said, maybe better to wait and see what happens ?
Being so close to the end of the year, do you reckon that this reclamation will be valid if it runs into the new year ?
Again, thank you so much .... If we ever meet, drinks are on me !
Dec 20th 2019, 9:01 am
#20
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Posts: 10
Re: Charged social charges on UK rental income
I'll just be glad to hear that you get it sorted, and receive the same treatment as others. Remind me not to move to your departement; sounds like you're up against it.
I struggled with article 24 too. A bit late but I finally had a lightbulb moment and downloaded the UK version of the treaty. Duh! Slightly easier to understand than the French😨😩
You should get an acknowledgment fairly quickly and I reckon this will count as regards the timing of your reclamation.
I struggled with article 24 too. A bit late but I finally had a lightbulb moment and downloaded the UK version of the treaty. Duh! Slightly easier to understand than the French😨😩
You should get an acknowledgment fairly quickly and I reckon this will count as regards the timing of your reclamation.
Dec 20th 2019, 1:43 pm
#21
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Re: Charged social charges on UK rental income
I'll just be glad to hear that you get it sorted, and receive the same treatment as others. Remind me not to move to your departement; sounds like you're up against it.
I struggled with article 24 too. A bit late but I finally had a lightbulb moment and downloaded the UK version of the treaty. Duh! Slightly easier to understand than the French😨😩
You should get an acknowledgment fairly quickly and I reckon this will count as regards the timing of your reclamation.
I struggled with article 24 too. A bit late but I finally had a lightbulb moment and downloaded the UK version of the treaty. Duh! Slightly easier to understand than the French😨😩
You should get an acknowledgment fairly quickly and I reckon this will count as regards the timing of your reclamation.
For all of you watching .... avoid B.R.I.G.N.O.L.E.S. tax office (Var) at all times !
Dec 20th 2019, 9:53 pm
#22
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Posts: 10
Re: Charged social charges on UK rental income
I was once told that the Var was the best departement in France. There's a downside to everything😉
Dec 22nd 2019, 8:27 am
#23
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Posts: 862
Re: Charged social charges on UK rental income
I fully anticipate the same thing happening next year but perhaps next time I’ll not be so lucky and I’ll be told that the charges are in fact payable. I have several colleagues who all come under the same tax office and some of us have been charged and some of us haven’t. There doesn’t seem to be any consistency and it very much depends on which tax officer you stumble on.
Obviously if you can sort this out on your own, that’s great. Personally if I were in your position I’d be tempted to employ a professional but only you can know whether the potential saving in social charges would more than offset the professional fees.
Best of luck and do please let us know what the outcome is.
Dec 22nd 2019, 10:17 am
#24
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Re: Charged social charges on UK rental income
What concerns me is the apparent arbitrariness of the whole process. When I went to see our local tax office (Strasbourg), I just pointed out that social charges had been levied on my UK rental income when in fact they shouldn’t have been. I didn’t quote any treaties or caselaw or anything. The guy behind the desk made one brief telephone call and said “You’re right, there’s been a mistake” and that was that.
I fully anticipate the same thing happening next year but perhaps next time I’ll not be so lucky and I’ll be told that the charges are in fact payable. I have several colleagues who all come under the same tax office and some of us have been charged and some of us haven’t. There doesn’t seem to be any consistency and it very much depends on which tax officer you stumble on.
Obviously if you can sort this out on your own, that’s great. Personally if I were in your position I’d be tempted to employ a professional but only you can know whether the potential saving in social charges would more than offset the professional fees.
Best of luck and do please let us know what the outcome is.
Someone mentionned attaching a little note on the declaration which seems very sensible. Will definately try that next year.
I hope to get an answer this year but I might not be that lucky.
Will update what happens next though.
Jan 2nd 2020, 8:36 am
#25
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Re: Charged social charges on UK rental income
Being underconfident (rightly as it turned out) in successfully filling in my first french tax form I included a whole page of additional information including the social charges issue. It seems that it's perfectly acceptable to add information outside of the questions in the form and the general 'more is better' approach to offering info to french officials worked well in this instance.
Jan 6th 2020, 9:16 am
#26
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Re: Charged social charges on UK rental income
And here is the decision ....
Bonjour, La demande que vous avez déposée auprès de nos services a été instruite. Vous trouverez ci-après les éléments de la décision.
Année d'imposition : 2016
Date de la décision : 26/12/2019
Nature de la décision : Rejet
Intérêts moratoires : non
Montant du dégrèvement de l'impôt : 0 €
Montant du dégrèvement des pénalités : 0 €
Montant des restitutions : 0 €
No further explanations.
Bonjour, La demande que vous avez déposée auprès de nos services a été instruite. Vous trouverez ci-après les éléments de la décision.
Année d'imposition : 2016
Date de la décision : 26/12/2019
Nature de la décision : Rejet
Intérêts moratoires : non
Montant du dégrèvement de l'impôt : 0 €
Montant du dégrèvement des pénalités : 0 €
Montant des restitutions : 0 €
No further explanations.
Jan 6th 2020, 12:39 pm
#27
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Re: Charged social charges on UK rental income
OK, having spent the last 3 hours on the internet, I think I know what's going on.
Moving from Africa to France, I don't have a S1 from the UK or any other country.
We (I) paid for our health insurance in full for years (1996 - 2015)
The last few years, ever since they change the system and it's now decided by the tax office, I don't have to pay any more.
Hence, I get my health care for free.
I believe this to be the reason I have to pay CSG over the UK rental.
I understand this from this article which I found but I also saw a few vague references to this in other articles :
https://www.french-property.com/guides/france/finance-taxation/taxation/social-security/social-welfare-levy
.
Moving from Africa to France, I don't have a S1 from the UK or any other country.
We (I) paid for our health insurance in full for years (1996 - 2015)
The last few years, ever since they change the system and it's now decided by the tax office, I don't have to pay any more.
Hence, I get my health care for free.
I believe this to be the reason I have to pay CSG over the UK rental.
I understand this from this article which I found but I also saw a few vague references to this in other articles :
7.6.4. Capital Gains/Rents/Investment Income
The basic rate of social charges is 17.2% on net gains or profit.However, where the individual holds an S1 health certificate, or they are non-resident in the EEA, they are only liable to the 7.5% solidarity tax.https://www.french-property.com/guides/france/finance-taxation/taxation/social-security/social-welfare-levy
.
