Magukat

We (an unmarried couple) have rented an apartment in France and now thinking of applying for the Cartes de séjour (to be safe in case of Brexit).
According to the https://www.remaininfrance.org/carte-de-sejour.html being economically active is one of the requirements. It doesn't specify however if one needs to work in France or demonstrating that you are working in the UK would be fine as well.

Has anyone applied for the carte recently?

Thank you

EuroTrash

To qualify for a carte de séjour you do need to be living in France, as opposed to living in the UK with a secondary residence available to you in France, and from your post it's not clear that you actually are.
When you apply for a cds, you need to produce a dossier of paperwork to prove you are established here and correctly exercising your EU right to freedom of movement.
The criteria vary slightly according to your status in France.
If your status is "worker" (employed or self employed) you need to show your employment contract plus French payslips showing social security deductions, or the accounts for your French registered businesss.
Other statuses include self-supporting inactif, pensioner, student, and for these statuses there are different sets of documents that need to be provided..
Normally, whatever your status you need to provide utility bills as evidence that you are living here, and you also need to show that you're affiliated to the French healthcare / social security system, or if you're inactif it may also be acceptable to have private health insurance to cover you. Having health insurance in place is a condition for legal residence in France whatever your status.

There is a special status for"cross border worker" or "frontalier" for people who live in one EU country and work in another. So if you live in France and work in the UK you could be classed as a cross border worker. You would need to have informed HMRC that you've moved to France and have made the necessary social security and tax arrangements. But since commuting daily between France and the UK isn't really feasible, normally the only Brits working in the UK who have this status are those whose families live permanently in France while they spend the week in the UK and come back at weekends; they're classed as resident in France because it's their family home. And, there is a question mark over what will happen with cross border workers after Brexit.

Take a look at France's criteria for residency and see if you think you meet any of them, but from what you've said it's not obvious how you would make the case for living in France, as opposed to living and working in the UK and renting a secondary residence in France.
https://www.impots.gouv.fr/portail/r...lish%20version

dmu

In an earlier thread you say that your partner will be working in the UK. In which case he can show UK payslips to prove that he's economically active. BUT in order to comply first with the residency conditions, he must have French healthcare insurance by paying into the French System, either via his UK employer or by setting up a French business structure.
As you're not legally bound, then you yourself must comply with the conditions for residency, then for a Carte de Séjour. As mentioned earlier, French Bureaucracy isn't partner-friendly in many respects and you're treated as individuals.
HTH
P.S. Best to consult official French sites, not out-of-date unofficial, possibly biassed sources.

EuroTrash

"Remain in France" is well researched site but I think the OP must have misunderstood something because this bit makes no sense to me
Being economically active is not a requirement for getting a CDS. You can get a CDS whatever your status - inactif, retiree, student, whatever - BUT you do need to meet the specific conditions for whatever your status is.

- well no not in this case, not if his work is carried out in the UK. If he physically works in the UK he will continue paying NICs on his salary, and the UK social security system should cover him in France.
https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizen...r/index_en.htm (click on Working in one country, living in another)
But he does need to have the paperwork in place with HMRC.
And if after a no-deal Brexit the UK is no longer part of the EU social security coordination agreement, it may be that he has to take out full private health insurance to cover him in France.

The main issue as I see it, is convincing both HMRC and France that France has become his main place of residence. I don't see how he is going to meet the UK's "leaver" criteria to get his S1, which as a cross border worker France will expect him to have.

dmu

That's what I meant by "via his UK employer"!
I'll have to check on an official site, but don't you have to be resident in France for 5 years before you can apply for a CdS?

bjgironde

There are various types of Titre de Sejour depending on your circumstances. Each of which requires different documents to be produced, depending on how long you are staying and whether you are working or not..

Here is the official list and requirements.

https://www.service-public.fr/partic...vosdroits/N110

EuroTrash

Ah ok. It sounded as if you were saying his employer had to pay cotisations into the French system for him - they don't, they simply refund to CPAM the cost of treatment/any reimbursements made to him, same as they do with with retirees on S1s.
5 years for a cds permanent, but the agreement in the case of a deal Brexit was that Brits who are already here, will be allowed to continue clocking up their 5 years. And they will need to apply for temporary cds in the mean time.

dmu

- Sorry, I didn't express myself very clearly.
- Fair enough, but the OPs only moved here a couple of months ago. They'll be residents here by the time Brexit is sorted out, but years away from the CdS.

Magukat

Thank you all for the replies.

Our sircumstances:
We rented an apartment in France in December.
1) My partner: He works for the UK employer. Commutes to London every week (working from France on Mon, leaving for London on Tue and coming back to France on Fri).
2) I: I have my ltd that is registered in the UK. So in practical terms I'm employed in the UK too, but I can work remotely and at the moment I'm considering if I a) can undertake some work for a new UK client ( I'll be working 100% remotely from France) b) it's better to look into closing the company.

So now if I look at the documents required to apply for CBD as "Carte de séjour pour Européen" https://www.service-public.fr/partic...vosdroits/N110 (thank you bjgironde for the link) I'm not clear on the following:

1) if we try to apply for CDP as Travailleur (economically active) it says in "Pièces à fournir ->

• Attestation d'emploi établie par votre employeur ".
  • So should one have job in France or just anywhere? i.e does it mean that my partner can't apply using this category because he works ( physically) in the UK & pays NIC there too of course

2) if I try to apply as étudiant if says in "Pièces à fournir ->

• "1 justificatif de suivi d'études : attestation d'inscription dans un établissement agréé ou votre carte d'étudiant"
  • Can I join any language school / undertake some distance learning course and then use "attestation d'inscription " as "justificatif de suivi d'études"? Is there any criteria for the cources that can/connot be used for this? Any specific duration maybe?
• "1 justificatif de ressources : déclaration ou tout autre moyen équivalent laissé à votre choix garantissant que vous disposez pour vous et, éventuellement pour votre famille, de ressources suffisantes "
  • What would be classified as sufficient funds in this case (for the student)? Should money be on French bank accounts? Should the statement show that there were no recent top ups?

3) if I try to apply as Inactif it says in "Pièces à fournir ->

• "1 justificatif de ressources : déclaration ou tout autre moyen équivalent laissé à votre choix garantissant que vous disposez pour vous et, éventuellement pour votre famille, de ressources suffisantes "
  • What would be classified as sufficient funds in this case(for the student)? Should money be on French bank accounts? Should the statement show that there were no recent top ups? Will ownership of the property in the UK make any difference?
• "1 justificatif d'assurance maladie : attestation de prise en charge par une assurance de vos frais de couverture maladie et, éventuellement, maternité (pour la 1re année de séjour, la carte européenne d'assurance maladie ou le formulaire européen de continuité de la prise en charge dans le pays d'origine est accepté)"
  • Does it mean that essentially we can: a) buy french private medical insurance.b) create a couple of savings accounts with sufficient funds. Once (a) and (b) done then apply for cds as "Inactif" even if we carry on working in the UK? If so then this sounds like the best option in our case ....but can it be used if the person is essentially "economically active", e.g should in theory be applying as Travailleur ?

Could you please advise/clarify if possible
Thank you

EuroTrash

Your status is what it is. If you are working for your livings then you are "workers". Inactifs have to demonstrate a stable source of unearned income above the threshold (usually a pension or rental/investment income) which presumably you wouldn't be able to do. A salary is not unearned income.

When you first came to the forum with your plan, my first reaction was that it could be tricky qualifying for a cds if you work in the UK. I can't add anything to what I tried to explain in post 7 of this thread Commute between London & France (I think I totally wasted my time typing that, didn't I). I know it's not what you want to hear but the sooner your partner starts liaising with HMRC via his employer if appropriate, makes sure everybody knows he's moved to France, and asks HMRC to issue an S1; and you either do the same if you are going to keep commuting back to the UK, or alternatively do the necessary to register yourself with URSSAF if you're going to work remotely from France, the better your chances of success with your cds application. Because if neither of you has an S1 to confirm that you are covered by the UK social security system and HMRC regards you as resident in France and has agreed to cover your healthcare here; and neither of you is paying cotisations in France and affiliated to the French social security system; then I don't see how either of you is going to qualify.

dmu

As you're renting, you'll need your landlord's written permission to use his/her address if you decide to set up a French business structure.
I won't harp any more on your partner status, but please take on board the fact that you are independent individuals in the eyes of the various French Administrations.

bjgironde

You clearly have a complicated set up as far as obtaining a CdS. If you personally are going to be a permanent resident in France, you will be classed as fiscally resident and be expected to be in the French tax system. Even if you HAVE to pay tax in the UK (I don't know if this is true with Ltd company) you will still have to declare all you world wide income in France. After you have been here three months, you are eligible to join the French Health service by paying cotisations on your income. Although the website link I sent you asks for a minimum of documents, each Departement has its own rules about what they want you to produce. I have just obtained a 10 year CdS and they wanted far more than what was on the Government website. The reason for telling you this, is that there are no short cuts to providing the correct paperwork and they will want you to demonstrate, with the right paperwork, that you are part of the French system and a genuine resident with sufficient income and health cover, before they will even look at the rest of your situation. Also (depending on which department you are living in) the delay from submitting your documents or getting a first interview, can be anything from a couple of months to a year. There is a great Facebook Group that you should join, where there is lots of useful information and people in similar situations may be able to help more

https://www.facebook.com/groups/RemainInFranceTogether/

EuroTrash

Should maybe just clarify this a bit, to avoid folks confusing the requirements for inactifs with the requirement for workers.
Firstly, the "3 month requirement" applies only to inactifs and pensioners. Workers go into the French social security from Day 1 of their work contract (or potentially Day 1 of trading if they open a business). In practice of course they don't actually receive their carte vitale immediately, but their entitlement to healthcare starts on that date, because that's when they become eligible for cotisations.
Secondly, the way cotisations are calculated for inactifs is totally different from the way they're calculated for workers. Inactifs pay for healthcare only, based on their unearned income as per their annual income declaration. Workers pay full social security contributions which are deducted at source from their earned income - for healthcare, pension, training levy, maternity/sick pay etc etc etc.

For folks in a non standard situation it's certainly worth asking the prefecture in advance of making the CDS application. Most prefectures have some kind of helpline or specific timeslots for enquiries. Saying that, my prefecture has a dedicated email address for CDS enquiries but it's as useful as a chocolate teapot - I emailed to say that I'd studied their website but it didn't seem very clear what documents freelancers should produce, and I listed a few documents I was considering providing and said, which of these would you accept. Their reply invited me to look at their website and gave me a link to the page that doesn't provide specific details...

Magukat

Thank you. If I'm getting it right then for my partner would be best to apply for S1 to inform HMRC about the move, whilst for me - to look into closing Ltd and then
a) Best option: finding an employment in France(I'm not keen on opening a new company here yet)
b) Another potential option: undertake some studies.

What I'm not quite clear:
1) You say " Inactifs pay for healthcare only, based on their unearned income as per their annual income declaration. "As I understand next time I will declare my income in the self assessment(it's french version) in a year's time. How does "3 months requirement" then work, i.e when do these 3 months start? After the first self-assessment?
2) How all this works for students. Let's say I close Ltd and have no income. I become a student here. What course should that be (any particular length) ? Do as a student I need to file still a self assessment? If not, then how do I join a health care (again , as you've said " Inactifs pay for healthcare only, based on their unearned income as per their annual income declaration. ")

Thank you

EuroTrash

As I see it, yes your partner should try and get an S1, that would seem to me his best chance. Although at this stage he would be lucky to get an answer from HMRC before 29 March.

Regarding yourself, the answers to all your questions will be entirely different depending what's decided on Brexit.
In the event of a no deal exit: you would be racing against the clock either to start a job before 29 March (although being in Lille you have a better chance than if you were out in the sticks) or to be enrolled as a student at an approved French institute of higher education before 29 March. Most courses start in the autumn and some have a second intake in Semester 2 which starts in January or February. If you can get over that hurdle and manage to get a job or somehow get enrolled on a course before 29 March then there is every chance you'd be allowed to continue on the same basis, although that isn't 100% guaranteed, it is at France's discretion.
If a deal is agreed and there's a transition period you would be better off all round, firstly because you would have a lot more time to apply and get organised, and secondly because the deal on the table does include a guarantee that all Brits established before the end of the transition period with their paperwork in order, will have their rights protected.

I think you're getting sidetracked by this 3 month requirement, it has no significance in the big picture. Simply, it's the length of time an inactif needs to have been continuously in France before they're entitled to apply for healthcare. The significance of 3 months is, that's how long EU citizens are permitted to stay in another EU country as a visitor. Obviously France doesn't want random visitors applying to join the healthcare system, hence (I pressume) why inactifs can't apply within that period. Beyond 3 months you can technically no longer be classed as a visitor because you've outstayed the time visitors are allowed to stay, therefore you can start applying for entitlements that are reserved for residents. After that, it could be that those 3 months are taken into account when they calculate the healthcare cotisations due because maybe they pro rata it from the date you actually joined PUMA rather than the date you arrived in France, but I don't honestly know. Eg say you arrive in Jan 2019 and you join PUMA in April 2019; you would declare your 2019 income in April 2020, and you would receive a healthcare bill in November 2020 for health cover during 2019. It would be logical for you to be billed for the period April 2019 to Dec 2019 since you couldn't join PUMA until April, but whether that's what they do or not, I don't know. But the 3 months has nothing to do with your income tax return or anything else, it's water under the bridge by then. On your first tax form you declare the date you actually arrived in France with the intention of staying.

As regards student healthcare, there are special arrangements for students aged under 28 but I assume you are older than that. I don't see why you wouldn't be eligible to apply for PUMA as a legally resident EU citizen but if for some reason you aren't, you would need private health insurance. The requirements for EU citizens coming to France as students are here https://www.service-public.fr/partic...sdroits/F22116. You would have to fill in a tax return because all adult residents must. You would also need to show sufficient resources to get a CDS but I don't know what the benchmark for sufficient resources for students is. AFAIK there are no fixed rules about the length of the course but you have to be enrolled as a full time student at an "établissement agréé", which would normally be a mainstream institute of higher education accredited to award nationally-recognised diplomas and degrees. Another thing to think about is that even if there is a deal and your EU rights are protected, you will still need a valid status for the first 5 years continuously in order to gain permanent residency. So if you stop being a student during those 5 years you need to move straight on to another status - worker, inactif or retired.

Looking at the voting earlier this evening, it's hard to see how that deal is ever going to get through so does that mean it's going to be no deal or no Brexit?