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Acquiring a sufficient amount of 'le' language.

Acquiring a sufficient amount of 'le' language.

Old Jun 8th 2013, 1:01 pm
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Default Acquiring a sufficient amount of 'le' language.

How many years, as an average guess, do you think it would take a child to acquire a sufficient amount of French to be able to undertake secondary level education in French- given that they have had no prior exposure to the target language?
In short, at what age is it, realistically, too late to expect a child to be able to cope?
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Old Jun 8th 2013, 3:14 pm
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Default Re: Acquiring a sufficient amount of 'le' language.

My friend has 2 daughters. When they arrived one was 5 and the other 8 .the younger one speaks the better French because she started with the basics that all kids start with. The older one missed all those Nursery Rhymes and childish building blocks. However her spoken French is perfect but her written English is a disaster. She totally failed the French version of the English GCSE, not in oral but written.
The moral of the story here seems to be do not neglect written English because you will not be employably bi-lingual.
To answer your question I guess 10-12 is the cut off date also for their circle of friends with whom they will have had no long term relationship.
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Old Jun 8th 2013, 3:25 pm
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Default Re: Acquiring a sufficient amount of 'le' language.

This really is like asking How long is a piece of string, and you will get conflicting information from everyone you speak to. So here goes my two penny worth...and please everyone correct me.

I have met, and heard on forums from the "my daughter arrived age 11 and a year later she was completely fluent" brigade, and I don't believe a word of it. My son was born in France, attended school from kindergarten to the end of primary, and is fluent, but it was hard won and not an easy feat. Both my husband and I are anglophone, but all of our friends in France were French and we worked hard at it, but he still would never have the broad based vocabulary of a good middle class French kid with well educated parents. I have a number of English friends who are married to French people and their kids did better, but still had their problems. All of them seemed to have difficulties around nine to ten, but then seemed to sort it out. Some schools are more supportive than others.

At home parents can help enormously, but it is hard work it is constant, and it got harder as he got older; yes I can discuss sex, drugs and rock and roll in French, and even God, heaven help me, but it wasn't and isn't easy. He's still at an all French school and our battle continues. It is not for the faint hearted, and it wasn't what I dreamed it would be like.

What age is your child, and where are you thinking of moving?
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Old Jun 8th 2013, 4:01 pm
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Default Re: Acquiring a sufficient amount of 'le' language.

Our friends left for France when their son was 7. He is now 11 and dare I say it fluent enough for our French neighbours to ask the question "why was a French boy living with an English family?"
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Old Jun 8th 2013, 4:16 pm
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Default Re: Acquiring a sufficient amount of 'le' language.

It depends on the child, doesn't it. A child that excels at science/maths will often find picking up a new language harder than a child who reads a lot and enjoys writing stories and has an affinity for languages. If the child in question has already started learning French or another language, is (s)he top of the class, bottom of the class or in the middle? That would give you an indication.

I have also noticed that kids can appear completely fluent because they have a good accent and sufficient everyday vocabulary to never appear at a loss for words, but as MillieF says, they don't always have a very solid foundation and their vocabulary can still be limited to the extent that when it comes to understanding and expressing complex ideas and nuances, they are nowhere near native speaker level. I am thinking of a family I know where the parents don't speak much French but are immensely proud of their two 'bilingual' children and always get them to translate for them, however I have noticed that often the children's translation is miles away from the real meaning. I'm not sure whether the kids themselves are aware but don't want to disappoint their parents or feel pressurised into keeping up appearances; or whether the kids genuinely think that understanding the gist is good enough. Hopefully they are learning and expanding their vocabulary all the time and will get there on their own, but it's a shame that their parents haven't been able to see below the surface.

Last edited by EuroTrash; Jun 8th 2013 at 4:33 pm.
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Old Jun 8th 2013, 4:28 pm
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Default Re: Acquiring a sufficient amount of 'le' language.

Originally Posted by MillieF
This really is like asking How long is a piece of string,
Indeed it is.

There is no hard and fast rule. If a bright child comes over at say 7 and goes into the French educational system and stays there he or she will obviously be able to cope. No doubt this will be the case up to 12 or 13. If the child is a Dumbo, then anything may happen. I've always subscribed to the theory that one needs to have the basics of a 'mother' tongue in place in order to learn another one well, but I may be wrong. Written language is always the hardest to get away with, as you can pull the wool over someone's ears orally (ouch) but not when it comes to writing properly, hence the need to start young.
There can be many outside factors. I used to have friends who were Polish, extremely well-educated and in good jobs, but their 'French' was absolutely appalling. They had two children that were both born in France; the elder did well at school and spoke normal French. The younger swore like a trooper, spoke poor French, was extremely unpleasant to all and sundry and didn't do very well at school. I sometimes wondered whether it wasn't because he rejected both French because of his parents' inability to speak it properly and also Polish because it was the language these two linguistic losers (in his eyes or ears) spoke best.
Basically I suppose it all depends on family background. Why do middle and upper-middle-class children do better at school? Usually because their parents are educated, there are books at home the parents may be seen actually reading, discussions are held at the dinner table in a language that has more than 500 basic words and every sentence doesn't necessarily start with "putain".
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Old Jun 8th 2013, 4:53 pm
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Default Re: Acquiring a sufficient amount of 'le' language.

Originally Posted by MillieF
This really is like asking How long is a piece of string, and you will get conflicting information from everyone you speak to. So here goes my two penny worth...and please everyone correct me.

I have met, and heard on forums from the "my daughter arrived age 11 and a year later she was completely fluent" brigade, and I don't believe a word of it. My son was born in France, attended school from kindergarten to the end of primary, and is fluent, but it was hard won and not an easy feat. Both my husband and I are anglophone, but all of our friends in France were French and we worked hard at it, but he still would never have the broad based vocabulary of a good middle class French kid with well educated parents. I have a number of English friends who are married to French people and their kids did better, but still had their problems. All of them seemed to have difficulties around nine to ten, but then seemed to sort it out. Some schools are more supportive than others.

At home parents can help enormously, but it is hard work it is constant, and it got harder as he got older; yes I can discuss sex, drugs and rock and roll in French, and even God, heaven help me, but it wasn't and isn't easy. He's still at an all French school and our battle continues. It is not for the faint hearted, and it wasn't what I dreamed it would be like.

What age is your child, and where are you thinking of moving?
Many thanks for your thoughts and the input from other forum members.

My daughters are aged 9 and 6.

We've been in China for the past five years and their English is poor.

Ideally, I wanted them to acquire another language and improve their English at the same time.

Therefore, I'm considering an ex-pat area such as 'Dordogneshire'.

I've signed up for a rental for six months in the Dordogne from October in order to see how it goes.

I may well have to return to England, but after an absence of twelve years I dread the thought.

My conscience tells me that it would be wrong of me to compromise their ability to use English at the expense of acquiring other languages.

When I use the term acquisition I mean all four language skills.

My eldest's written English is appalling and not being in an English speaking environment both of them are not exposed to the nuances of English.

They are blissfully unaware of my dilemma as they play with their Chinese friends and then talk to relatives in the UK on Skype.
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Old Jun 8th 2013, 5:14 pm
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Default Re: Acquiring a sufficient amount of 'le' language.

Originally Posted by terrygees366
My daughters are aged 9 and 6.

I've signed up for a rental for six months in the Dordogne from October in order to see how it goes.
Hmmmm

Well, if you're coming to France for six months, your children will have to be enrolled in primary school so you'll see how it goes in a wholly French-speaking environment (the best option in my opinion, rather than faffing around with an English-speaking school, probably miles away and expensive). Later on they will have to learn English within the French system if you decide to stay; thus they will acquire the basics they don't seem to have yet, and a lot more. One other thing, if they are fluent in spoken Chinese that is something which you should really try to keep up; the trouble is children can forget a language in no time, and subsequently have practically no recollection of ever having spoken it. People that can speak French, Chinese, and English are very few and far between in Europe. Obviously you may have trouble finding a school that offers Chinese, as it is after all, with only one and a half billion people speaking it, une langue rare, as the French like to call Russian, Arabic, Chinese etc.

Good luck, and don't worry, kids are made to be adaptable.
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Old Jun 8th 2013, 6:48 pm
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Default Re: Acquiring a sufficient amount of 'le' language.

Yes, I echo Peabrain, I have moved about quite a bit, and have been amazed at how kids can thrive within a linguistic 'soup'. Whatever happens keep up their Manderin so they don't forget it. I was horrified at how dreadful our son's written English was, but in one year of concentrating on it, it has been improved amazingly. At one point, a couple of years back, my husband and I got in a dreadful panic, about the lack of his language acquisition.

Euro trash really struck a chord with me, as I have encountered a few parents, who have been somewhat ignorant of French themselves, but we're firmly of the opinion that their kids were fluent speakers. I fully believe that most things can be ironed out if the parents are willing to see that a problem exists, and are themselves willing to take the appropriate steps to work with their kids.

What an interesting thread. Thank you so much for starting it Terry. I wish you every success with your plans, and am sure that with the attitude of their Dad, the girls will shine.
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Old Jun 8th 2013, 11:58 pm
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Default Re: Acquiring a sufficient amount of 'le' language.

Many, many thanks, Peabrain and MillieF in particular, for your words of reassurance. My daughters' mother is Thai so Thai is their mother tongue.
The only effective English she's had has been from me. I taught her the phonics programme available from Debbie Hepplewhite which was excellent. The only problem, I find with phonics, is, in my eldest's case, that her spelling is atrocious. I'm satisfied with her reading - she's just ploughed her way through the Milly Molly Mandy series. Maybe her spelling might have been poor had she only been exposed to English. She's in the top five in her Chinese class of fifty-two students where they are only taught Mandarin, Maths and English (Ingrish). Her mother, who can also speak Chinese, will ensure that Mandarin isn't neglected. It's up to me now to encourage and help her through the inevitable frustrations of acquiring Latin based languages - not much time for golf by the sound of it!
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Old Jun 9th 2013, 7:37 am
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Default Re: Acquiring a sufficient amount of 'le' language.

If you are planning to stay in France, I would advise you to concentrate mainly on French. French schools are not easy going, and children who do not do well in school suffer immensely. You will also need tutors for help with the abundant homework, unless one of you is fluent. I have lived here for many years and the French educational system is the one thing that has caused me the most frustration and anger.

Mr. Pea brain, I must take you to task:
"If the child is a Dumbo, then anything may happen" - Insensitive with a capital I ...
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Old Jun 9th 2013, 8:07 am
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Default Re: Acquiring a sufficient amount of 'le' language.

So how could Peabrains concise statement be re-worded to mean the same thing in as many words?

The school my friends daughter goes to in Sarlat offers Mandarin as an option.
Those postings advising the extent of parental input into their child's development are correct. Golf will be off the menu if you really want your kids to succeed.
Whilst on the surface it seems a praiseworthy ambition to have polyglot children I just wonder what the motivation is as there might be a danger of Jack of all Languages, master of none?
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Old Jun 9th 2013, 8:52 am
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Default Re: Acquiring a sufficient amount of 'le' language.

Originally Posted by wetwang
So how could Peabrains concise statement be re-worded to mean the same thing in as many words?
Quite.
One thing that seems to be coming through in this thread is that parents have to be realistic about their kids' abilities and achievements. If you have a child who is totally adorable but, as PB said, a Dumbo in terms of intellect - and not everyone can be the sharpest knife in the drawer - it's not fair to set them a challenge that could be too much for them and make them miserable. In the UK they can grow up happily, make the most of their potential and find their niche without being hamstrung by not being able to communicate with most of the population.
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Old Jun 9th 2013, 10:47 am
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Default Re: Acquiring a sufficient amount of 'le' language.

Originally Posted by wetwang
Whilst on the surface it seems a praiseworthy ambition to have polyglot children I just wonder what the motivation is as there might be a danger of Jack of all Languages, master of none?

I couldn't agree more.

Motivation: early years spent in Thailand so Thai and English were spoken in the home. Next came a job offer in China in 2009 and three languages were soon being spoken. I was more reactive than proactive in this language adventure.
With English being the weakest language, as it's the least used in the current environment, the problem needed to be addressed.
Do I return to the UK, and the problem will be resolved, or can I introduce another language into the home by immersion in France and see an acceptable improvement in English at the same time?
Secondary level education is where 'it' begins so I have some time left to change course if necessary.
Hence my thread opener, "Can an average student acquire a sufficient amount of vocabulary, in two years, to cope with the demands of a secondary level education in a foreign language?"
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Old Jun 9th 2013, 11:06 am
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Default Re: Acquiring a sufficient amount of 'le' language.

Originally Posted by EuroTrash
In the UK they can grow up happily, make the most of their potential and find their niche without being hamstrung by not being able to communicate with most of the population.
In some parts of the UK they would need to learn another language to overcome that problem
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