Toy submarines
Apr 26th 2016, 8:57 am
#1
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Toy submarines
France to build Australia’s new submarine fleet as $50bn contract awarded | Australia news | The Guardian
So Australia has finally gone for the toy submarine option - to be built by Australia-hating unions in SA in order to prop up votes and a joke economy. Expect cost overruns to be paid for by the less than 50% of us who actually pay tax
Sailor killers
Ridiculous
Hopefully, the feds don't commit to all of them upfront so that we can have a nuclear option later on
So Australia has finally gone for the toy submarine option - to be built by Australia-hating unions in SA in order to prop up votes and a joke economy. Expect cost overruns to be paid for by the less than 50% of us who actually pay tax
Sailor killers
Ridiculous
Hopefully, the feds don't commit to all of them upfront so that we can have a nuclear option later on
Apr 26th 2016, 11:28 pm
#2
has lost The Game
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Re: Toy submarines
France to build Australia’s new submarine fleet as $50bn contract awarded | Australia news | The Guardian
So Australia has finally gone for the toy submarine option - to be built by Australia-hating unions in SA in order to prop up votes and a joke economy. Expect cost overruns to be paid for by the less than 50% of us who actually pay tax
Sailor killers
Ridiculous
Hopefully, the feds don't commit to all of them upfront so that we can have a nuclear option later on
So Australia has finally gone for the toy submarine option - to be built by Australia-hating unions in SA in order to prop up votes and a joke economy. Expect cost overruns to be paid for by the less than 50% of us who actually pay tax
Sailor killers
Ridiculous
Hopefully, the feds don't commit to all of them upfront so that we can have a nuclear option later on
Have to agree with this. Conventional diesel electric submarines simply don't fit the usage profile that Australia needs. Leasing Virginia class boats from the USN was a much better, and much more cost effective solution, however, as you say, doesn't prop up the South Australian economy.
I think the German fixed price contract offered by Thyssenkrupp looked a better deal - but didn't come with the requisite sensor suite that the French are bundling. That would have required a second tender process.
It's time for Australia to grow up when it comes to nuclear solutions.
S
Apr 26th 2016, 11:41 pm
#4
snɐןɔ ʎʇıuɐs
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 6,558
Re: Toy submarines
I think the issue is what automation and ubiquitous sensor nets are going to do to the whole concept of submarines.
A lot of the focus seems to be towards sub hunting solutions that leave no place for a sub to hide (or a ship for that matter). In that context automated and very numerous is the way to go, and quite possibly airborne for greater range.
Power sources in that world shift to 'small/cheap'.
A lot of the focus seems to be towards sub hunting solutions that leave no place for a sub to hide (or a ship for that matter). In that context automated and very numerous is the way to go, and quite possibly airborne for greater range.
Power sources in that world shift to 'small/cheap'.
Apr 27th 2016, 10:49 am
#5
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Re: Toy submarines
Why can't we just settle for the subs we have? Sure, it's a bit annoying having to pay an extra $2 for some avocado and then they completely ruin it with way too much avocado. But, think of that awesome white bread. Is a French baguette as good as that? I say no.
Speaking of subway, I have many times accidentally ordered a football meatlong sub.
Speaking of subway, I have many times accidentally ordered a football meatlong sub.
Apr 28th 2016, 4:41 am
#6
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Re: Toy submarines
Have to agree with this. Conventional diesel electric submarines simply don't fit the usage profile that Australia needs. Leasing Virginia class boats from the USN was a much better, and much more cost effective solution, however, as you say, doesn't prop up the South Australian economy.
I think the German fixed price contract offered by Thyssenkrupp looked a better deal - but didn't come with the requisite sensor suite that the French are bundling. That would have required a second tender process.
It's time for Australia to grow up when it comes to nuclear solutions.
S
I think the German fixed price contract offered by Thyssenkrupp looked a better deal - but didn't come with the requisite sensor suite that the French are bundling. That would have required a second tender process.
It's time for Australia to grow up when it comes to nuclear solutions.
S
12 Virginia SSNs would mean nobody could f**k with Australia. Nobody
Another solution would be to get, say, 6 of these toy Shortfin Barracudas but add 6 Barracuda SSNs. In wartime we could surge 4 diesel boats into the shallow waters to the North (around Indonesia and the Malacca straits) and 4 SSNs into the Pacific and India Oceans to hunt down Chinese
I was reading a bit about the French Barracuda. It looks very capable but here's the rub, France ordered 6 in 2006 for about AUD12b, so 12 should cost no more than AUD24-28b with overruns. Why then are we paying AUD50b (excluding inevitable overrun) for 12 inferior versions? Sure, there is the union/socialist tax to pay, but twice the price? Something is not adding up
Last edited by Amazulu; Apr 28th 2016 at 4:59 am.
Apr 28th 2016, 4:45 am
#7
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Re: Toy submarines
I think the issue is what automation and ubiquitous sensor nets are going to do to the whole concept of submarines.
A lot of the focus seems to be towards sub hunting solutions that leave no place for a sub to hide (or a ship for that matter). In that context automated and very numerous is the way to go, and quite possibly airborne for greater range.
Power sources in that world shift to 'small/cheap'.
A lot of the focus seems to be towards sub hunting solutions that leave no place for a sub to hide (or a ship for that matter). In that context automated and very numerous is the way to go, and quite possibly airborne for greater range.
Power sources in that world shift to 'small/cheap'.
Collins is aging and needs replacing soon and even with this new fleet, billions will need to be spent keeping them operational for longer
Hope this helps
Apr 28th 2016, 4:48 am
#8
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Re: Toy submarines
Unfortunately, the Virginia SSN option is not going to happen - neither side has the guts
12 Virginia SSNs would mean nobody could f**k with Australia. Nobody
Another solution would be to get, say, 6 of these toy Shortfin Barracudas but add 6 Barracuda SSNs. In wartime we could surge 4 diesel boats into the shallow waters to the North (around Indonesia and the Malacca straits) and 4 SSNs into the Pacific and India Oceans to hunt down Chinese
I was reading a bit about the French Barracuda. It looks very capable but here's the rub, France ordered 6 in 2006 for about AUD12b, so 12 should costs no more than AUD24-28b with overruns. Why then are we paying AUD50b (excluding inevitable overrun) for 12 inferior versions? Sure, there is the union/socialist tax to pay, but twice the price? Something is not adding up
12 Virginia SSNs would mean nobody could f**k with Australia. Nobody
Another solution would be to get, say, 6 of these toy Shortfin Barracudas but add 6 Barracuda SSNs. In wartime we could surge 4 diesel boats into the shallow waters to the North (around Indonesia and the Malacca straits) and 4 SSNs into the Pacific and India Oceans to hunt down Chinese
I was reading a bit about the French Barracuda. It looks very capable but here's the rub, France ordered 6 in 2006 for about AUD12b, so 12 should costs no more than AUD24-28b with overruns. Why then are we paying AUD50b (excluding inevitable overrun) for 12 inferior versions? Sure, there is the union/socialist tax to pay, but twice the price? Something is not adding up
Yes, and particularly as the US Navy is now planning to build 10 Virginia class subs in 5 years (2019-24) for only $17.6bn. I'm really struggling to see the value in this $50bn deal...
S
Apr 28th 2016, 4:59 am
#9
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Apr 28th 2016, 5:01 am
#10
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Apr 28th 2016, 5:12 am
#11
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Re: Toy submarines
I think the decision to build *all* of them in Australia is also deeply suspicious.
The tooling to get 2 underway exists in France already, whereas there will be a huge lead time to build the tooling infrastructure here, which, as you say, will mean stretching out the working life of the Collins boats even further.
It makes far more sense to start on two in France asap, while building the tooling here in parallel to build the next 10.
This is clearly a very political decision.
S
Apr 28th 2016, 5:32 am
#12
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Re: Toy submarines
France to build Australia’s new submarine fleet as $50bn contract awarded | Australia news | The Guardian
So Australia has finally gone for the toy submarine option - to be built by Australia-hating unions in SA in order to prop up votes and a joke economy. Expect cost overruns to be paid for by the less than 50% of us who actually pay tax
Sailor killers
Ridiculous
Hopefully, the feds don't commit to all of them upfront so that we can have a nuclear option later on
So Australia has finally gone for the toy submarine option - to be built by Australia-hating unions in SA in order to prop up votes and a joke economy. Expect cost overruns to be paid for by the less than 50% of us who actually pay tax
Sailor killers
Ridiculous
Hopefully, the feds don't commit to all of them upfront so that we can have a nuclear option later on
Most astute folk will be aware this is nothing but a vote rigging exercise on the part of the Coalition to shore up support in three SA seats in danger of falling in the coming election.
A total waste of tax payer funding adding probably close to a quarter extra by time of completion in 2060.
Apr 28th 2016, 5:36 am
#13
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Re: Toy submarines
Try and overlook your bias for a change and reflect on the facts. Those being $15 million dollars being wasted per worker in order to obtain 3,000 so said jobs.
Most astute folk will be aware this is nothing but a vote rigging exercise on the part of the Coalition to shore up support in three SA seats in danger of falling in the coming election.
A total waste of tax payer funding adding probably close to a quarter extra by time of completion in 2060.
Most astute folk will be aware this is nothing but a vote rigging exercise on the part of the Coalition to shore up support in three SA seats in danger of falling in the coming election.
A total waste of tax payer funding adding probably close to a quarter extra by time of completion in 2060.
Wasn't that pretty much what Zulu said here though:
Apr 28th 2016, 5:37 am
#14
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Oct 2008
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Re: Toy submarines
Why can't we just settle for the subs we have? Sure, it's a bit annoying having to pay an extra $2 for some avocado and then they completely ruin it with way too much avocado. But, think of that awesome white bread. Is a French baguette as good as that? I say no.
Speaking of subway, I have many times accidentally ordered a football meatlong sub.
Speaking of subway, I have many times accidentally ordered a football meatlong sub.
The subs we have will be operational for at least another ten years. At great cost mind you to maintain efficiency.
These subs purchased from the Americans have been found laden with short comings that required expensive rectifying after purchase. Hardly one of Australia's better procurements.
As least the Chinese are not upset.
Apr 28th 2016, 9:53 am
#15
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Re: Toy submarines
The subs we have will be operational for at least another ten years. At great cost mind you to maintain efficiency.
These subs purchased from the Americans have been found laden with short comings that required expensive rectifying after purchase. Hardly one of Australia's better procurements.
As least the Chinese are not upset.
These subs purchased from the Americans have been found laden with short comings that required expensive rectifying after purchase. Hardly one of Australia's better procurements.
As least the Chinese are not upset.